Possible slipped Timing Belt (1.8t) - Page 2

philm · 23rd February 2018, 17:53

More of a generalisation on the amount of twist not a hard and fast figure but that is about what i have found when fitting DAYCO belts,timing belts are the spawn of the devil

should have stayed with chains although noisy at times or better still using the system of cogs you can get for some conversions.

Surely a local member could assist with the loan of a socket.

philm · 23rd February 2018, 17:57

You may find this helpful found in another post.

https://rimmerbros.com/content--name...ign=180223_SWW

Sheraton · 23rd February 2018, 18:44

from what i seen last night - the belt tensioner seems off the mark by a few degrees - i'm assuming on the loose side - if the marker is 3 o'clock, the adjuster is set about 2 o'clock

if that makes sense.

I'm anxious to check timing to be sure now - as i'm quite keen to undertake the
repairs i'm expecting

It will be a satisfying job I think - to strip and rebuild the head with new valves

what if i find the timing lines up ? could i still assume it had slipped ? and maybe somehow lined up again ? or could a slack belt cause an intermittent timing issue ?

the misaligned tension marker makes me think that it must have slipped

I explained in my other post - the moment the issue arised was due to being hard on throttle in 2nd gear (high boost

) before stopping for a junction - i think when i released throttle something went as the car stalled coming to a stop and was reluctant to start - followed by hunting idle misfiring etc.. up to the sound of Metal on Metal

I'd like to think i can properly diagnose the fault/cause - if it's inconclusive with a timing check - should i trust my judgement/instinct and go ahead with the expected repairs required ?

My thinking is whether i get proper confirmation of a slipped belt or not - take the head off for valve replacement - rather than just change the belt/tensioner - I'm being realistic rather than hope for the best

Paul.

slovcan · 23rd February 2018, 18:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheraton

from what i seen last night - the belt tensioner seems off the mark by a few degrees - i'm assuming on the loose side - if the marker is 3 o'clock, the adjuster is set about 2 o'clock

if that makes sense.

I'm anxious to check timing to be sure now - as i'm quite keen to undertake the
repairs i'm expecting

It will be a satisfying job I think - to strip and rebuild the head with new valves

what if i find the timing lines up ? could i still assume it had slipped ? and maybe somehow lined up again ? or could a slack belt cause an intermittent timing issue ?

the misaligned tension marker makes me think that it must have slipped

I explained in my other post - the moment the issue arised was due to being hard on throttle in 2nd gear (high boost

) before stopping for a junction - i think when i released throttle something went as the car stalled coming to a stop and was reluctant to start - followed by hunting idle misfiring etc.. up to the sound of Metal on Metal

I'd like to think i can properly diagnose the fault/cause - if it's inconclusive with a timing check - should i trust my judgement/instinct and go ahead with the expected repairs required ?

My thinking is whether i get proper confirmation of a slipped belt or not - take the head off for valve replacement - rather than just change the belt/tensioner - I'm being realistic rather than hope for the best

Paul.

If the marks are still properly aligned, I would do a compression check before anything else. In fact, even if the marks are only out by a tooth, I'd still do a compression check before moving on.

cb750chris · 23rd February 2018, 21:34

Having had a look at a car today, I can say it is possible for a belt to slip and the engine still run.
The car today was 2 teeth out on the rear camshaft.
I was asked to look at the car as it was having problems starting when cold, and rough idle. The issue was confirmed by simply removing the cam belt cover, and the timing marks didn't like up on the cams, so then had to start off from scratch, set up the crank, remove the belt, align the cams, then refit the belt.
Ideally I would have done a compression test, but didn't have a tester with me (as I wasn't expecting to be doing a cam belt job), however the engine does seem to be running ok, though it has a bit of a tapping noise whilst cold still.
As for the original poster - if you reset the timing so it is correct and give it a try, you should be able to do a compression check and assess for possible damage - if you have damaged valves you won't do any real extra damage if you start the engine and try. if it is still rough when you start the engine then you need to dig in deeper than where you are. I wouldn't fit a new belt, until I know the state of the rest of the engine - if you have an expensive repair you may not choose to repair this engine?
Also, it is possible to put an endoscope down the plug holes and make a reasonable inspection without removing the head..

Chris

Sheraton · 24th February 2018, 01:21

cheers Chris

I was thinking along the same lines r.e not fitting a new belt - and possibly re-timing the belt (if it is off) to asses the damage

Also i've been looking at an inspection camera

cheap enough - I'm sure i'll see signs of valve contact on the pistons

Once i have the funds i'll get onto proper diagnosis

I'll be happy to repair this engine - if it is what i suspect has happened

I'm already blaming the tensioner

I can't be sure of what brand was fitted (i had belt etc.. done with head gasket repairs) If i remember correct i bought a
full kit - so i'd assume most parts were not MG/Rover parts...

I'll try to get Original parts for what i need this time - or if there are better than original

lol......one thing gets done then another issue arises.... I've still my driver side New brake Backplate/shoe assembly to go on....and i have new front discs(had to wait til i fixed handbrake...which i did...just have driver side too ).... Oh well...it's Good experience

I'll hopefully get a chance to do more over the weekend - with a 22mm socket

One question - do I have to rotate the Crank in a specific direction ? - I assume i do....and thinking it will be clockwise ?

Paul.

Paul....

Mike Noc · 24th February 2018, 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sheraton

One question - do I have to rotate the Crank in a specific direction ? - I assume i do....and thinking it will be clockwise ?

Paul....

Yes when timing an engine always rotate it in the same direction that it runs.

philm · 24th February 2018, 10:47

Paul get yourself into B&Q they have 22mm sockets for £1.42 not sure of the quality but should be ok for occasional usage.

Sheraton · 24th February 2018, 13:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by philm

Paul get yourself into B&Q they have 22mm sockets for £1.42 not sure of the quality but should be ok for occasional usage.

seems like a bargain

- although B&Q is 10 miles or so from me now

they closed my local (walking distance) store

I think i'd rather have a Halfords Professional - in the event i need to remove the crank bolt for repairs - peace of mind

here some pics from when i took the cover off

tensioner -

[IMG]

[/IMG]

this one i've arrowed the timing mark on the crank pulley - and roughly where the mark on the cover is...close..

[IMG]

[/IMG]

cam pulleys

[IMG]

[/IMG]

not sure if you can tell anything from these

Paul.

slovcan · 24th February 2018, 14:06

Those are telling pictures, Paul. You could be 2 teeth out. I think I'd now go ahead with a compression test.

23rd February 2018, 17:53	#11
philm Loves to post rover 75 tourer Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: HEREFORD Posts: 269 Thanks: 7 Thanked 69 Times in 56 Posts	More of a generalisation on the amount of twist not a hard and fast figure but that is about what i have found when fitting DAYCO belts,timing belts are the spawn of the devil should have stayed with chains although noisy at times or better still using the system of cogs you can get for some conversions. Surely a local member could assist with the loan of a socket. __________________ Free Toaf & Delphi diagnostics.

23rd February 2018, 17:57	#12
philm Loves to post rover 75 tourer Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: HEREFORD Posts: 269 Thanks: 7 Thanked 69 Times in 56 Posts	You may find this helpful found in another post. https://rimmerbros.com/content--name...ign=180223_SWW __________________ Free Toaf & Delphi diagnostics.

23rd February 2018, 21:34	#15
cb750chris Trader Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Portsmouth Posts: 849 Thanks: 201 Thanked 292 Times in 200 Posts	Having had a look at a car today, I can say it is possible for a belt to slip and the engine still run. The car today was 2 teeth out on the rear camshaft. I was asked to look at the car as it was having problems starting when cold, and rough idle. The issue was confirmed by simply removing the cam belt cover, and the timing marks didn't like up on the cams, so then had to start off from scratch, set up the crank, remove the belt, align the cams, then refit the belt. Ideally I would have done a compression test, but didn't have a tester with me (as I wasn't expecting to be doing a cam belt job), however the engine does seem to be running ok, though it has a bit of a tapping noise whilst cold still. As for the original poster - if you reset the timing so it is correct and give it a try, you should be able to do a compression check and assess for possible damage - if you have damaged valves you won't do any real extra damage if you start the engine and try. if it is still rough when you start the engine then you need to dig in deeper than where you are. I wouldn't fit a new belt, until I know the state of the rest of the engine - if you have an expensive repair you may not choose to repair this engine? Also, it is possible to put an endoscope down the plug holes and make a reasonable inspection without removing the head.. Chris __________________ Now offering T4 services in the Fareham area Replacement keys programmed / supplied / cut Diesel 135 upgrade available IPK virginisation and T4 matching available Sorry, due to a big change in home circumstances, I am unable to do any large jobs at present, but can still offer evening time diagnostics.

24th February 2018, 10:47	#18
philm Loves to post rover 75 tourer Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: HEREFORD Posts: 269 Thanks: 7 Thanked 69 Times in 56 Posts	Paul get yourself into B&Q they have 22mm sockets for £1.42 not sure of the quality but should be ok for occasional usage. __________________ Free Toaf & Delphi diagnostics.

24th February 2018, 14:06	#20
slovcan Gets stuck in 75 Tourer CDT MK2 manual in Glorious Grey Join Date: Jan 2018 Location: Slovakia Posts: 987 Thanks: 926 Thanked 346 Times in 252 Posts	Those are telling pictures, Paul. You could be 2 teeth out. I think I'd now go ahead with a compression test. __________________ Southern Slovakia Anything can happen in Formula 1 and usually does - Murray Walker 1999 Triumph Trophy 900, Saddlesore 1600, Iron Butt Riders Association #63720 2005 Rover 75 CDT Tourer MK2

23rd February 2018, 18:44	#13
Sheraton Posted a thing or two Rover 75 1.8t Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,377 Thanks: 384 Thanked 409 Times in 267 Posts	from what i seen last night - the belt tensioner seems off the mark by a few degrees - i'm assuming on the loose side - if the marker is 3 o'clock, the adjuster is set about 2 o'clock if that makes sense. I'm anxious to check timing to be sure now - as i'm quite keen to undertake the repairs i'm expecting It will be a satisfying job I think - to strip and rebuild the head with new valves what if i find the timing lines up ? could i still assume it had slipped ? and maybe somehow lined up again ? or could a slack belt cause an intermittent timing issue ? the misaligned tension marker makes me think that it must have slipped I explained in my other post - the moment the issue arised was due to being hard on throttle in 2nd gear (high boost ) before stopping for a junction - i think when i released throttle something went as the car stalled coming to a stop and was reluctant to start - followed by hunting idle misfiring etc.. up to the sound of Metal on Metal I'd like to think i can properly diagnose the fault/cause - if it's inconclusive with a timing check - should i trust my judgement/instinct and go ahead with the expected repairs required ? My thinking is whether i get proper confirmation of a slipped belt or not - take the head off for valve replacement - rather than just change the belt/tensioner - I'm being realistic rather than hope for the best Paul.

24th February 2018, 01:21	#16
Sheraton Posted a thing or two Rover 75 1.8t Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,377 Thanks: 384 Thanked 409 Times in 267 Posts	cheers Chris I was thinking along the same lines r.e not fitting a new belt - and possibly re-timing the belt (if it is off) to asses the damage Also i've been looking at an inspection camera cheap enough - I'm sure i'll see signs of valve contact on the pistons Once i have the funds i'll get onto proper diagnosis I'll be happy to repair this engine - if it is what i suspect has happened I'm already blaming the tensioner I can't be sure of what brand was fitted (i had belt etc.. done with head gasket repairs) If i remember correct i bought a full kit - so i'd assume most parts were not MG/Rover parts... I'll try to get Original parts for what i need this time - or if there are better than original lol......one thing gets done then another issue arises.... I've still my driver side New brake Backplate/shoe assembly to go on....and i have new front discs(had to wait til i fixed handbrake...which i did...just have driver side too ).... Oh well...it's Good experience I'll hopefully get a chance to do more over the weekend - with a 22mm socket One question - do I have to rotate the Crank in a specific direction ? - I assume i do....and thinking it will be clockwise ? Paul. Paul....