Possible slipped Timing Belt (1.8t) - Page 3

cb750chris · 25th February 2018, 14:26

As mentioned, the pictures are showing the timing is off.
You need to set the bottom end up, release the tensioner, remove the belt, reset the cams, then refit the belt.
Can be done in perhaps an hour and half.
Chris

Sheraton · 25th February 2018, 15:17

I had a suspicion that these photos showed the timing wouldn't line up (when rotated into correct position) but wasn't sure

I'm maybe a wee bit over cautious with such things - But i'd rather NOT crank the engine to do a compression test - and likewise re-timing the belt, I'm sure i've bent valves and i'd rather not risk any more damage than there already is...... too paranoid?

the car was misfiring and hunting at idle - the last she ran was rough

would only fire up with about half throttle and would stall without throttle - and sounded REALLY rough.....worse than a Subaru

I will get a socket tomorrow and check timing against the marks

I may re-time/tension the belt and see what happens - I can't help being a realist tho....... I'm not the type to hope it will magically be fixed with a belt adjustment - Based on what I experienced

at the same time - I'm not looking to make a mountain out of a mole hill - HOWEVER

- there are a couple of other wee jobs i had in mind to do - and Head Off is a Good time to do these

- New Coolant hoses, thermostat housing and the Coolant pipe (the metal one that connects to the stat housing)
replacement gaskets for turbo oil return and dipstick tube

would give me an opportunity to sort quite a bit that has been annoying me

then the unnecessary mods get in mind

like - Ooh, it would be an ideal time to swap to Piper Cams, Can I source Upgraded Valves (Paul Ivey?) I've been eyeing an Equal length Exhaust Manifold

well...I might as well recondition the turbo...........

Just Me ?

I have been checking around for parts for a Valve replacement - and considering options.

All Metal Belt tensioner, Is this the best available ?
Water Pump minus evaporator,
N-series Head Gasket ? and does this REQUIRE the upgraded Oil Rail to be fitted ?
Am i Best to replace ALL valves or only the damaged ones ?
which Timing belt is best ?

I'll mention again - I am still going to check the timing with the crank lined up
and I'm more confident now from you Good folks feedback - that, I will see Clear evidence of belt slippage.

I don't think i'll bother compression testing or re-timing the belt - let's face it i know it you know it......the DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.....it won't repair itself with a freshly timed belt

Paul.

mbonwick · 25th February 2018, 15:38

If you're replacing one valve, you may as well do all 16. And if you're doing that, may as well use upgraded ones. Makes sense to get a ported head at the same time.

N-series gasket does require the uprated oil rail, but that's really not a big job to fit while the head is off.

If the turbo is in good shape, no need to recondition it "just for the sake of it"

Sheraton · 25th February 2018, 16:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbonwick

If you're replacing one valve, you may as well do all 16. And if you're doing that, may as well use upgraded ones. Makes sense to get a ported head at the same time.

N-series gasket does require the uprated oil rail, but that's really not a big job to fit while the head is off.

If the turbo is in good shape, no need to recondition it "just for the sake of it"

I will rein myself in a bit

Replacement Coolant hoses are a Requirement (failure imminent on the wee top hose i reckon) Piper Cams and Equal length manifold are "Wants"

Turbo will be left til such time

.....and Porting Polishing - I've been considering it

doing it myself

I'm not managing to find any current results for Paul Ivey Valves - so probs MG/Rover Valves, I'll do all 16

My only issue with removing the sump is working under the car is Not Great for Me with the working Environment i Have

- i've time to contemplate it

I should have funds available for next weekend to order parts

tomorrow when i get a socket - I may try re-timing the belt out of curiosity

then again...... lol

it's been a cracking day here too - I should have just removed the Head today

Paul.

mbonwick · 25th February 2018, 16:22

My thoughts are - if you've bent a valve, odds are you've done damage to the valve guide as well.
In which case it might be easier to get a built head and do a swap - DVA Power seem to be quite highly regarded for this sort of thing.

slovcan · 25th February 2018, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by mbonwick

My thoughts are - if you've bent a valve, odds are you've done damage to the valve guide as well.
In which case it might be easier to get a built head and do a swap - DVA Power seem to be quite highly regarded for this sort of thing.

^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^

A professionally overhauled head - likely with some sort of warranty - vs a head with valves replaced by someone who doesn't do that sort of thing 8 hours a day every day. Plug 'n' play replacement vs extensive downtime. You want new cams? Ask the rebuilder. They may have options for that.

FWIW, the engine was running poorly. If there is damage done, it is done. Doing a compression test won't change that.

Cheers,
Glenn

philm · 25th February 2018, 17:12

Paul for the time it takes reset the timing belt to the correct settings.
You would be surprised how rough a motor will run if out by a couple of teeth couple of teeth in reality is a fair few degrees you only needed to turn an old fashioned dissy a small amount to make the car run like a bag of nails.
You may be surprised.

Sheraton · 25th February 2018, 18:03

I've been looking at replacement heads with valves - as a worst case

the work involved doesn't faze me - this may be my first Car - However I am 40

and - whilst it was supervised, I have done quite a bit of restoration work on cars in the past - albeit, the last Engine i worked on was about 13/14 years ago

I done all the spanner work (under instruction/supervision) for a rebuild of a series 2 e-type 4.2 straight 6

I even diagnosed the Metal on Metal sound when we installed it and fired it up

.......my uncle was looking at me asking if i'd dropped anything into a cylinder etc..during rebuild.... Luckily i have Good ears (i'm a Musician) and found it was the crank pulley contacting the BENT timing marker - a simple bend back to shape and she was sounding lovely

I am also a tinkerer by Nature

and Work with tools of all types - so try and stop me from having a Go

I will probably try starting the Car after adjusting the belt - out of curiosity

and obviously i'll acquire the couple of tools i'd need for Valve replacement - Valve spring compressor, 22mm socket, Cam locking tool - and i think i'm good for the rest.

I'm quite happy that i'm up to speed on the process - I understand what's involved - and by the time i get round to it there will be no stone left unturned

Paul.

Lovel · 25th February 2018, 19:41

I came across an owner with a Freelander 1.8 who had owned it for number of years and was running like a bag of nails. It had full service history and been to two main dealers to try and find the issue but they still could not find the issue. I test drove it and it was truly dire to drive. A quick check of the timing showed it was out a couple of teeth at least. With the most basic of tools at the roadside I was able to time it up correctly, after that the freelander ran beautifully. The owner was really chuffed and could not believe the outcome as he was thinking to scrap it.

On the other hand a neighbour of mine had had a coolant leak on his MG TF for some time and just topped up with water when the level dropped despite my warnings that the coolant was being diluted, eventually we got a heavy frost as is the norm up here, and guess what the belt slipped. He tried to tow start it but the rear wheels were locking up. This is where I came along, I found that two of the valve heads were lying on top of the pistons and this is what was stopping the engine turning over. I was offered this car for nothing, and upon inspection replaced the two exhaust valves with secondhand, an new gasket. There was some damage to the top of the pistons from the valve heads. 1 new BW750 Payen elastomer gasket later and the thing was running sweetly again despite the abuse. My son drove it for about 24k miles after that. We have recently laid it up as corrosion is getting the better of it and he has a zs180 which he seems more interested in nowadays.

Sheraton · 25th February 2018, 21:22

I will check and re adjust the belt/tensioner - and give it a bash

However - "ruff" running was not why i switched her off and abandoned searching for a misfire - Unless a misfire can Go from "Lumpy" to "Sounds like Something Just broke"

I should know more tomorrow or tuesday at the latest

Paul.

25th February 2018, 14:26	#21
cb750chris Trader Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Portsmouth Posts: 849 Thanks: 201 Thanked 292 Times in 200 Posts	As mentioned, the pictures are showing the timing is off. You need to set the bottom end up, release the tensioner, remove the belt, reset the cams, then refit the belt. Can be done in perhaps an hour and half. Chris __________________ Now offering T4 services in the Fareham area Replacement keys programmed / supplied / cut Diesel 135 upgrade available IPK virginisation and T4 matching available Sorry, due to a big change in home circumstances, I am unable to do any large jobs at present, but can still offer evening time diagnostics.

25th February 2018, 17:12	#27
philm Loves to post rover 75 tourer Join Date: Jan 2017 Location: HEREFORD Posts: 269 Thanks: 7 Thanked 69 Times in 56 Posts	Paul for the time it takes reset the timing belt to the correct settings. You would be surprised how rough a motor will run if out by a couple of teeth couple of teeth in reality is a fair few degrees you only needed to turn an old fashioned dissy a small amount to make the car run like a bag of nails. You may be surprised. __________________ Free Toaf & Delphi diagnostics.

25th February 2018, 19:41	#29
Lovel I really should get out more....... P6B, L550, Imp, F56, Commando Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Aberdeenshire Posts: 2,886 Thanks: 352 Thanked 677 Times in 440 Posts	I came across an owner with a Freelander 1.8 who had owned it for number of years and was running like a bag of nails. It had full service history and been to two main dealers to try and find the issue but they still could not find the issue. I test drove it and it was truly dire to drive. A quick check of the timing showed it was out a couple of teeth at least. With the most basic of tools at the roadside I was able to time it up correctly, after that the freelander ran beautifully. The owner was really chuffed and could not believe the outcome as he was thinking to scrap it. On the other hand a neighbour of mine had had a coolant leak on his MG TF for some time and just topped up with water when the level dropped despite my warnings that the coolant was being diluted, eventually we got a heavy frost as is the norm up here, and guess what the belt slipped. He tried to tow start it but the rear wheels were locking up. This is where I came along, I found that two of the valve heads were lying on top of the pistons and this is what was stopping the engine turning over. I was offered this car for nothing, and upon inspection replaced the two exhaust valves with secondhand, an new gasket. There was some damage to the top of the pistons from the valve heads. 1 new BW750 Payen elastomer gasket later and the thing was running sweetly again despite the abuse. My son drove it for about 24k miles after that. We have recently laid it up as corrosion is getting the better of it and he has a zs180 which he seems more interested in nowadays. Last edited by Lovel; 25th February 2018 at 19:47..

25th February 2018, 15:17	#22
Sheraton Posted a thing or two Rover 75 1.8t Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,377 Thanks: 384 Thanked 409 Times in 267 Posts	I had a suspicion that these photos showed the timing wouldn't line up (when rotated into correct position) but wasn't sure I'm maybe a wee bit over cautious with such things - But i'd rather NOT crank the engine to do a compression test - and likewise re-timing the belt, I'm sure i've bent valves and i'd rather not risk any more damage than there already is...... too paranoid? the car was misfiring and hunting at idle - the last she ran was rough would only fire up with about half throttle and would stall without throttle - and sounded REALLY rough.....worse than a Subaru I will get a socket tomorrow and check timing against the marks I may re-time/tension the belt and see what happens - I can't help being a realist tho....... I'm not the type to hope it will magically be fixed with a belt adjustment - Based on what I experienced at the same time - I'm not looking to make a mountain out of a mole hill - HOWEVER - there are a couple of other wee jobs i had in mind to do - and Head Off is a Good time to do these - New Coolant hoses, thermostat housing and the Coolant pipe (the metal one that connects to the stat housing) replacement gaskets for turbo oil return and dipstick tube would give me an opportunity to sort quite a bit that has been annoying me then the unnecessary mods get in mind like - Ooh, it would be an ideal time to swap to Piper Cams, Can I source Upgraded Valves (Paul Ivey?) I've been eyeing an Equal length Exhaust Manifold well...I might as well recondition the turbo........... Just Me ? I have been checking around for parts for a Valve replacement - and considering options. All Metal Belt tensioner, Is this the best available ? Water Pump minus evaporator, N-series Head Gasket ? and does this REQUIRE the upgraded Oil Rail to be fitted ? Am i Best to replace ALL valves or only the damaged ones ? which Timing belt is best ? I'll mention again - I am still going to check the timing with the crank lined up and I'm more confident now from you Good folks feedback - that, I will see Clear evidence of belt slippage. I don't think i'll bother compression testing or re-timing the belt - let's face it i know it you know it......the DAMAGE HAS BEEN DONE.....it won't repair itself with a freshly timed belt Paul.

25th February 2018, 15:38	#23
mbonwick Gets stuck in Connoisseur SE 1.8 Auto Saloon Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Kendal Posts: 633 Thanks: 129 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts	If you're replacing one valve, you may as well do all 16. And if you're doing that, may as well use upgraded ones. Makes sense to get a ported head at the same time. N-series gasket does require the uprated oil rail, but that's really not a big job to fit while the head is off. If the turbo is in good shape, no need to recondition it "just for the sake of it"

25th February 2018, 16:22	#25
mbonwick Gets stuck in Connoisseur SE 1.8 Auto Saloon Join Date: Jul 2015 Location: Kendal Posts: 633 Thanks: 129 Thanked 176 Times in 147 Posts	My thoughts are - if you've bent a valve, odds are you've done damage to the valve guide as well. In which case it might be easier to get a built head and do a swap - DVA Power seem to be quite highly regarded for this sort of thing.

25th February 2018, 18:03	#28
Sheraton Posted a thing or two Rover 75 1.8t Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,377 Thanks: 384 Thanked 409 Times in 267 Posts	I've been looking at replacement heads with valves - as a worst case the work involved doesn't faze me - this may be my first Car - However I am 40 and - whilst it was supervised, I have done quite a bit of restoration work on cars in the past - albeit, the last Engine i worked on was about 13/14 years ago I done all the spanner work (under instruction/supervision) for a rebuild of a series 2 e-type 4.2 straight 6 I even diagnosed the Metal on Metal sound when we installed it and fired it up .......my uncle was looking at me asking if i'd dropped anything into a cylinder etc..during rebuild.... Luckily i have Good ears (i'm a Musician) and found it was the crank pulley contacting the BENT timing marker - a simple bend back to shape and she was sounding lovely I am also a tinkerer by Nature and Work with tools of all types - so try and stop me from having a Go I will probably try starting the Car after adjusting the belt - out of curiosity and obviously i'll acquire the couple of tools i'd need for Valve replacement - Valve spring compressor, 22mm socket, Cam locking tool - and i think i'm good for the rest. I'm quite happy that i'm up to speed on the process - I understand what's involved - and by the time i get round to it there will be no stone left unturned Paul.

25th February 2018, 21:22	#30
Sheraton Posted a thing or two Rover 75 1.8t Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Edinburgh Posts: 1,377 Thanks: 384 Thanked 409 Times in 267 Posts	I will check and re adjust the belt/tensioner - and give it a bash However - "ruff" running was not why i switched her off and abandoned searching for a misfire - Unless a misfire can Go from "Lumpy" to "Sounds like Something Just broke" I should know more tomorrow or tuesday at the latest Paul.