Not So Smart Motorways

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by planenut

Apparently, the gantry signs were already on 60, but it happened so quick before there was time to react, the first HGV swerving around the car and the second, unsighted, took the car out.

Oh dear - that is a scenario that is likely to be repeated.

As a regular user of the M3 I have had no issues with the Smart Motorway system as you approach the M25 - but it was noticible in the run up to it opening that the 50mph limit actually “phased” the M3 traffic better onto the M25.

There were questions about whether a simple steady variable speed reduction as on the M25 would be a better option than the complicated and very expensive “Smart Motorway” system where the hard shoulder is given up in times of heavy usage.

Can not help thinking that this is a dubious action in periods when the Hard Shoulder is likely to be most needed

[AndyN01]

I've already posted as I'm pretty sure the M42 round by me was the "pilot" for this.

Anyone know of a Govt. "pilot" that hasn't rolled out regardless of the outcomes and concerns? I don't.

Anyway, we're back to my pet subject - speed.

If the first HGV swerved out and avoided the car then how come the second "...couldn't stop in the distance the driver could see was clear...".

We all know the answer because we've all seen the trucks (and pretty much everyone else) traveling less than a 75's length apart. I believe it's partly to do with saving fuel??

IMHO speed is not that relevant; it's distance that's important.

Distance = time to react and, if necessary, stop.

Just think how easy it would be if everyone left a 100m ish gap at 70mph?

It is, however, very difficult to Police a "gap" so we've gone for the relatively cheap and very lucrative camera route.

Maybe we should be introducing compulsory, non switchable, adaptive cruise/distance control on all new vehicles? Perhaps starting with HGV's as they have the biggest momentum and therefore cause the most damage in a collision?

Just an idea.

As before thoughts are with the family.

Andy.

[Forestgreen]

Very sad, though the figures for accidents suggest a reduction since introducing the "smart" scheme a few years ago. That shouldn't be a surprise given the additional measures such as speed restrictions at peak times to improve traffic flow. Tragic and devastating as a single fatality is, it shouldn't provoke knee jerk calls to abandon the scheme. After all, as pointed out, many dual carriageway trunk roads have the same national speed limit as motorways but don't have hard shoulders (and unlike motorways, you can get stuck behind a walking-pace tractor on such roads!) If overall the motorways are safer as a result of the new measures it would be a backwards step to remove them. It is completely unacceptable for lorry drivers to be given leeway to lose concentration now and thenon motorways or any other roads.



The point about gaps is interesting as the gap required for safe braking falls with reducing speed. Hence forcing traffic to move at a constant 50mph means you can pack more cars onto the road at peak times, and their average speed is greater, as otherwise they would be accelerating and slowing down repeatedly which would slow everyone down more. When thinking about vehicle capacity on the roads you should not think about the size of the car, lorry etc, but the size of the vehicle PLUS the safe stopping distance in front of it, as determining the capacity of the road.

[Mercury RV]

There is nothing at all SMART about doing this to a motorway, currently a coach driver from our area is in prison for hitting a broken down car on the HARD SHOULDER of the M1 in an early morning incident in light fog. I now avoid ALL hard shoulder use on these roads, I seemed to have spent all the time going between the HARD SHOULDER and the normal lanes, as such I now ignore them. I very nearly hit a car some while ago whilst using one of these when the motorist had a problem and stopped just around the curve in the road, I then had to swerve into a normal live lane to avoid the back of him as he stopped suddenly. There will be many more of these, it IS a stupid idea, but they blame motorists when a incident occurs. I avoid the use of the word accident, as there is always blame, but in this case, I feel the blame lies solely at Highways England's door, or whatever idiot thought this was a good idea. I can recall seeing a car have a puncture in the outside lanes of the M25, the driver thought it was a good idea to change the wheel in the outside lane, he could have pulled to the hard shoulder, but no they had taken that away with this great idea. I feel for people who hit cars or whatever on these roads, the same as I feel so very sorry for train drivers who have to face people (literally in some cases) who throw themselves in front of trains. Please Highways England, stop this madness, common sense said it was a stupid irresponsible idea, it seems to be proved more and more.

[Mercury RV]

Just a thought, with all the lanes on a Motorway, why is it I can make clear progress by using the inside lane that no one else wants to use? I make a habit of overtaking and then moving to the inside lane again, the lane that no one seems to want to use. It may be that people still call it the slow lane, and only wimps use the slow lane? There is no such thing as the slow lane, the inside lane and then all the others are overtaking lanes, please everyone, overtake and then pull back in, more traffic could use the road then and much safer as well. We also operate a breakdown truck, and when I drive this sometimes I am amazed how many car drivers just sit in lanes, for miles, and the only time they move out of that lane is when they turn off!!

[AndyN01]

Originally Posted by Mercury RV

Just a thought, with all the lanes on a Motorway, why is it I can make clear progress by using the inside lane that no one else wants to use? I make a habit of overtaking and then moving to the inside lane again, the lane that no one seems to want to use. It may be that people still call it the slow lane, and only wimps use the slow lane? There is no such thing as the slow lane, the inside lane and then all the others are overtaking lanes, please everyone, overtake and then pull back in, more traffic could use the road then and much safer as well. We also operate a breakdown truck, and when I drive this sometimes I am amazed how many car drivers just sit in lanes, for miles, and the only time they move out of that lane is when they turn off!!

And the number of prosecutions, being pulled over by the Police for a "discussion" and advice or any other sort of consequence for just sitting in one lane (or tailgating etc.) is ???????

So the message is: Speed has consequences but behaviour that is probably more dangerous is OK as there's no consequence.

Wrong, but I'm sure that's how it's perceived by many/most.

Which is more dangerous:

Vehicles travelling at 50mph 5 metres apart or vehicles travelling at,say, 100 mph 5 Km apart?

I know which I'd choose.

Andy.

[wraymond]

Not sure if it was ever actually 'the law' but overtaking on the left used to be a cardinal sin. Now, it happens regularly and often by HGV's. Perhaps the practice is due to impatience but some people think they are entitled to a brick wall.

[AndyN01]

From here:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-high...ays-253-to-273

Highway Code:

Rule 268

Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake.

However, there is no link to any Law - there are many links for other Rules. This suggests to me that it is not an absolute offence (such as speeding).

I'm guessing that there is no legal definition of "...congested conditions..."

The Courts take the Highway Code as the baseline so, presumably, whatever reason a driver has for driving contrary to the "Rule" they will consider in reaching their judgement and possible punishment.

As an aside I happened to be driving North up the M1/M18/A1M yesterday.

This thread started a few days ago - there was the incident where the second lorry killed a child because, it appears, the driver couldn't react and stop or take avoiding action in time. I posted about the need for distance.

Lo and behold what do I see. Lines of lorries driving about a cars length apart at 60mph.

I just don't get it. Does the reality of the possible consequences not hit home?

Maybe driver-less might be better .

Andy.

[rustymotor]

You might start to see learners on motorways as it was made legal a few days ago, has to be with a qualified instructor and a dual control car.

[Mercury RV]

The reason you will see many lorries in a line one behind the other, is like our recovery trucks, they are fitted with speed limiters, this limits the truck to 56MPH + or - 2MPH, as such spare a thought for those of us trying to also make progress along the road before you overtake and then pull in in front, just clearing the front of the truck. One of our recovery trucks that transports large American Motorhomes has 16 gears (4 gears which splits 4 times) this means you may have to change down once, think of this in a truck, its not just a quick change. I am not saying ALL truck drivers are that professional, but then this applies to car drivers as well.

The issue is the Smart Motorway, do you REALLY think it is that smart? I personally think it is a serious incident waiting to happen, as has been proved now many times, ask the man serving the prison sentence for his alleged crime. I know you can travel on a de-restricted dual carriageway at 70MPH, however, normally they do not have barriers prohibiting you from pulling off the actual road, and really I am expecting more things on a normal road than I am on a Motorway.

I personally think it is a good idea to provide tuition to learners on a Motorway, or should we just let a learner loose to give it a go? Hopefully the instructor will educate the learner that there is no such thing as a 'Slow Lane' and to pull in when you have completed your manoeuvre, back into the first lane if it is clear.