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Old 12th November 2021, 16:23   #21
macafee2
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Originally Posted by MSS View Post
I have never subscribed to any conspiracy theories - usually preferring to go with incompetence as an explanation rather than conspiracy. But I don't feel that there is sufficient incompetence around to explain this particular decision.

With that, I throw this in the ring as a possible rationale that this is a mechanism for retaining the government's voting base by showing that 'we are looking after your interests'.

forcing people to be jabed and people losing their job if not double jabbed, I would expect to back fire on them, it damn well should do. I make this comment not because it is the Tories in power, I would make it no matter who it was.

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Old 13th November 2021, 12:51   #22
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The newly described policy seems to me to be a rather stupid attempt to destroy, or at least get a foot in the door of, all other legitimate and lawful freedoms and liberties by setting a precedent. Blackmail comes to mind, following the debacle of the last two years.
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Old 13th November 2021, 14:21   #23
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Agreed.
However employers can ask for certain conditions to be met of their employees.
Other than those which have a medical condition which precludes it, I cannot understand why anyone would not want to be double jabbed. 90% of those being treated in ICUs have not been jabbed.
Are people refusing to be double jabbed OR are people refusing to be jabbed period.

I believe that individuals in what is laughingly called a democracy should have the right to make their own choice as to whether they wishe to be jabbed or not, for whatever reason whatsoever.

However, in an working environment, where these very same people are looking after vulnerable elderly residents/patients, it is reasonable to expect these individuals to NOT represent a danger to these residents/patients, having said that, the government should not have to legislate in order to pursuade people to do this that and the other, instead they should educate, otherwise we risk creating an even bigger crisis in our already broken social care system.

In the end the lawyers are going to win this argument, and many care workers will choose to leave the system, and work instead in a different sector, this is already happening in the nursing sector, we all will be worse off for it.
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Old 13th November 2021, 14:42   #24
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People tend to forget that having vaccinations / inoculations are a condition of employment in some professions - and have been for many years. People in various professions sometimes need quite a few vaccinations / innoculations, depending on their jobs or where in the world they are working. It's a fact of life, nothing new. It's got nothing to do with choices or rights. If you want the job, you need to have the jabs unless exempt for medical reasons - in which case you may not be offered the job.

Take, for example, people working down sewers, not only do they need a long list of jabs, they also require certificates of immunisation. No certificates, no job. Yet you don't see people up in arms about that do you? Where are the sewage workers complaining about their 'rights' being taken away???

Children routinely get given jabs. The UK has lost it's measles free status because of idiotic parents refusing to have their children jabbed. Arguably, refusing the jab could be considered child abuse.

The UK has had an immunisation policy for decades.


Quote:
The overall aim of the UK’s routine immunisation schedule is to provide protection against the following vaccine-preventable infections:
  • diphtheria
  • haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib)
  • hepatitis B
  • human papillomavirus (certain serotypes)
  • influenza
  • measles
  • meningococcal disease (certain serogroups)
  • mumps
  • pertussis (whooping cough)
  • pneumococcal disease (certain serotypes)
  • polio
  • rotavirus
  • rubella
  • shingles
  • tetanus
https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...s-and-vaccines


Sadly, many people idiotically believe the rubbish spouted on social media and thereby putting themselves or their children at risk.

The fact remains that to work in health care, one needs to have Jabs, it's a condition of employment. You never heard people complaining about that pre covid did you!

People have a choice. Get the required jabs or face the consequences. If people wish to loose their jobs over it, that's their choice and they only have themselves to blame.


I'm fed up with people shouting about their 'rights'. Such people tend to forget - or conveniently ignore - that with rights come responsibilities. Responsibility not just to oneself but one's family and wider society. Your rights do not trump everyone else's. Your rights are not more important than other people's.

Just like people complaining about having to wear masks in shops etc. The masks are not worn to protect oneself, but to protect others. One has to ask what sort of person would refuse to protect other people, and should such a person even be allowed to be part of society.

They shout about their right not to wear a mask, but selfishly ignore that others have a right not to have germs blown in their faces.

How many complaining about their 'rights' have ever bothered to read the Human Rights Act? For a start there is no such thing as "Freedom of Choice" I honestly don't know where you got that notion from.

The arguments about Jabs comes under Article 10 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...dom-expression

However, if you bother to read section 10 you'll see it says:

Quote:
The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary.
Now tell me that your human rights are being infringed . . . as I say, with rights come responsibilities. Please remember that next time someone complains that their human rights are being walked all over, or talking about some mythical "freedom of choice".

Ali.


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Last edited by Alikris; 13th November 2021 at 16:00..
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Old 13th November 2021, 15:08   #25
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Originally Posted by Alikris View Post
.............


Sadly, many people idiotically believe the rubbish spouted on social media and thereby putting themselves or their children at risk.

The fact remains that to work in health care, one needs to have Jabs, it's a condition of employment. You don't hear people complaining about that do you!

People have a choice. Get the required jabs or face the consequences. If people wish to loose their jobs over it, that's their choice and they only have themselves to blame.

Ali.


Just playing devil's advocate. Why not place the burden of choice on those who want care (not health care, but general care, which is what this issue is about). If you want to be looked after by someone other than your family, take what the carers have to offer, including vaccination status. If you don't want what the carer is offering in terms of vaccination status for yourself or your family do not want it for you, your family can look after you.

What would be wrong with this approach?

PS - I am double vaccinated, come from a family of engineers and scientists who are all vaccinated, so not an idiot as far as this particular issue is concerned. More generally, it's all a matter of degree, so who knows!
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Old 13th November 2021, 16:26   #26
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Originally Posted by Alikris View Post
People tend to forget that having vaccinations / inoculations are a condition of employment in some professions - and have been for many years. People in various professions sometimes need quite a few vaccinations / innoculations, depending on their jobs or where in the world they are working. It's a fact of life, nothing new. It's got nothing to do with choices or rights. If you want the job, you need to have the jabs unless exempt for medical reasons - in which case you may not be offered the job.

Take, for example, people working down sewers, not only do they need a long list of jabs, they also require certificates of immunisation. No certificates, no job. Yet you don't see people up in arms about that do you? Where are the sewage workers complaining about their 'rights' being taken away???

Children routinely get given jabs. The UK has lost it's measles free status because of idiotic parents refusing to have their children jabbed. Arguably, refusing the jab could be considered child abuse.

The UK has had an immunisation policy for decades.


https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...s-and-vaccines


Sadly, many people idiotically believe the rubbish spouted on social media and thereby putting themselves or their children at risk.

The fact remains that to work in health care, one needs to have Jabs, it's a condition of employment. You never heard people complaining about that pre covid did you!

People have a choice. Get the required jabs or face the consequences. If people wish to loose their jobs over it, that's their choice and they only have themselves to blame.


I'm fed up with people shouting about their 'rights'. Such people tend to forget - or conveniently ignore - that with rights come responsibilities. Responsibility not just to oneself but one's family and wider society. Your rights do not trump everyone else's. Your rights are not more important than other people's.

Just like people complaining about having to wear masks in shops etc. The masks are not worn to protect oneself, but to protect others. One has to ask what sort of person would refuse to protect other people, and should such a person even be allowed to be part of society.

They shout about their right not to wear a mask, but selfishly ignore that others have a right not to have germs blown in their faces.

How many complaining about their 'rights' have ever bothered to read the Human Rights Act? For a start there is no such thing as "Freedom of Choice" I honestly don't know where you got that notion from.

The arguments about Jabs comes under Article 10 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...dom-expression

However, if you bother to read section 10 you'll see it says:

Now tell me that your human rights are being infringed . . . as I say, with rights come responsibilities. Please remember that next time someone complains that their human rights are being walked all over, or talking about some mythical "freedom of choice".

Ali.



Ali, no not forgotten but if "I" apply today for one of those jobs, the condition that I would need to be immunised is already in place. Covid is different, "I" have been employed in the role for "20" years, now they bring in a new rule, that I have to have a jab for something else, this new jab does not stop be becoming infected or passing the infection on.

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Old 13th November 2021, 17:12   #27
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Marina, who indeed worked through the pandemic, is adamant that they should be jabbed end of. She says if it saved one life it would be worth it. I suppose what she went through and the many people whom she held their hand as they slipped away from this virus has set her mind and I certainly would not tell her she is wrong.

Me, I have more of a problem with this. On one hand I can see the issue people could have. Such as a relatively short test period ( even though apparently the trials were run concurrent as opposed to consecutive). However, you could have all the clinical trials and tests you could wish for and still after that you could be the one person it affected in a terrible way. So that to me weakens that argument.

Then there is the human rights and the argument that this is introduced with no consultation. Well, remember seat belt wearing becoming mandatory? That was mid stream " it's my life" etc were mentioned time and time again but it happened regardless, don't comply, don't drive. One of the things pointed out then, as I suppose is applicable now, is the cost and strain on the NHS should you have then, injured yourself or now, contract the virus without the jab. After all the nature of the job would make you high risk of catching it being in super close contact with so many vulnerable people.

Then again what about those who worked through the pandemic that may have contracted the virus but have never shown any symptoms and have natural immunity, why should they lose their jobs?

As I say I can see both sides.
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Old 13th November 2021, 18:35   #28
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Originally Posted by Alikris View Post
People tend to forget that having vaccinations / inoculations are a condition of employment in some professions - and have been for many years. People in various professions sometimes need quite a few vaccinations / innoculations, depending on their jobs or where in the world they are working. It's a fact of life, nothing new. It's got nothing to do with choices or rights. If you want the job, you need to have the jabs unless exempt for medical reasons - in which case you may not be offered the job.

Take, for example, people working down sewers, not only do they need a long list of jabs, they also require certificates of immunisation. No certificates, no job. Yet you don't see people up in arms about that do you? Where are the sewage workers complaining about their 'rights' being taken away???

Children routinely get given jabs. The UK has lost it's measles free status because of idiotic parents refusing to have their children jabbed. Arguably, refusing the jab could be considered child abuse.

The UK has had an immunisation policy for decades.


https://www.gov.uk/government/collec...s-and-vaccines


Sadly, many people idiotically believe the rubbish spouted on social media and thereby putting themselves or their children at risk.

The fact remains that to work in health care, one needs to have Jabs, it's a condition of employment. You never heard people complaining about that pre covid did you!

People have a choice. Get the required jabs or face the consequences. If people wish to loose their jobs over it, that's their choice and they only have themselves to blame.


I'm fed up with people shouting about their 'rights'. Such people tend to forget - or conveniently ignore - that with rights come responsibilities. Responsibility not just to oneself but one's family and wider society. Your rights do not trump everyone else's. Your rights are not more important than other people's.

Just like people complaining about having to wear masks in shops etc. The masks are not worn to protect oneself, but to protect others. One has to ask what sort of person would refuse to protect other people, and should such a person even be allowed to be part of society.

They shout about their right not to wear a mask, but selfishly ignore that others have a right not to have germs blown in their faces.

How many complaining about their 'rights' have ever bothered to read the Human Rights Act? For a start there is no such thing as "Freedom of Choice" I honestly don't know where you got that notion from.

The arguments about Jabs comes under Article 10 https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/...dom-expression

However, if you bother to read section 10 you'll see it says:

Now tell me that your human rights are being infringed . . . as I say, with rights come responsibilities. Please remember that next time someone complains that their human rights are being walked all over, or talking about some mythical "freedom of choice".

Ali.


I suspect people believe that in the case of Covid-19, there is a conspiracy element to the vaccination requirements, the speed with which the vaccines were produced has many people questioning long term safety, in the absence of governmental reassurance as to the processes involved in bringing a drug to the market safely.
Some people are suspicious in any case.

The fact that the government was in disarray at the start of the pandemic, the lack of direction, the listening to the science, but not listening has a lot of people worried.

Last edited by grivas; 13th November 2021 at 18:36.. Reason: editing
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Old 13th November 2021, 19:04   #29
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Me, I have more of a problem with this. On one hand I can see the issue people could have. Such as a relatively short test period ( even though apparently the trials were run concurrent as opposed to consecutive). However, you could have all the clinical trials and tests you could wish for and still after that you could be the one person it affected in a terrible way. So that to me weakens that argument.

From what I understand, the care home workers refusing the vaccination's are not anti vaxxer's Per se,just this one.The reason being that nobody can be sure of long time side effects say 5 years on.What if their caution proves to be well founded and the masses develop serious health issue's in the long term.Of course people should have the right to refuse but if the law says it is a condition of employment for that particular career then it has to be obeyed in my opinion.
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Old 13th November 2021, 20:54   #30
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From what I understand, the care home workers refusing the vaccination's are not anti vaxxer's Per se,just this one.The reason being that nobody can be sure of long time side effects say 5 years on.What if their caution proves to be well founded and the masses develop serious health issue's in the long term.Of course people should have the right to refuse but if the law says it is a condition of employment for that particular career then it has to be obeyed in my opinion.
mmm it is the law, it must be obeyed? Does that apply to unjust laws? I offer you Alan Turing who was prosecuted for homosexuality. No way would that happen now. Was it a just law at the time?

What do the patients gain by carers being double jabbed?
What benefit does bringing this to law give patients?

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