The debate on 'Saving Cars or Scrapping Cars'

[KRISTLEE]

Originally Posted by Avulon

A good post, I'd add that it does very much depend on how much of that work you'd have to pay someone else to do and how you value your spare time. If you can do all the work yourself and love mucking about in the garage more than anything then it may be a £1000 car for £300 car that needs £400 of parts and a few weeks of evenings.



From an owners point of view once they decide to let a car go then it's got to be to get the best return on it. With an exception that it may be that nothing needs doing to it and you can't bare to strip it down. Many owners won't have the facility to strip a whole car - it requires space to strip the car, space to store the parts - a skillset in taking things apart without damage and the motivation to sell the parts or retain them for later use.

For the particular vehicle in question the rotting rear sill is becoming a more common fault now on our cars so there might be some expectation of having to repair the sills. But if you put two next to each other - one has rotten sills and one doesnt' the price difference must reflect the cost of having the sills repaired, and that cost will vary depending on the buyer and what skill/tools/facilities they have themselves. However couple a rotten sills with all the other failure items. You have to think that the car as whole has been very neglected and it wouldn't be long before something else cropped up on top of that list.

I quite agree with you regarding the sills and other work required, it does suggest a neglected example with a gamble as to whether there will be something else significant to do soon enough.

I won't be stripping my full car as I don't have the space or facilities (car is currently sitting in my Sisters front gravelled garden) so all that I am able to remove is easily accessible items and then the remaining car will be taken away.

When Ronnie (suzublu) popped round earlier we did mention that if I keep the registration by retention then when I come back to the fold I will be looking for an 04 ZTT lol

[RoverDan]

I edited my post to take out the waffle about my own tourer in case it was OT, but it chimes in with what others have said. Bought it at 120,000 miles about 4 years ago as a bit tired but basically sound car. The major appeal was that it was a connie SE tourer in green with green leather, and that it was almost on my doorstep. Further plus points were one owner for most of its years/miles and a thick wodge of service history up to about 100,000, and of course 12 months MOT.

I paid £1600 from a trader and have paid about that since then (over 40,000 miles) in sorting out the issues that cropped up, most of which I would expect on any of these cars at that sort of mileage.

Initial problems spotted before purchase were the full set of new chinese tyres (suggesting bush/alignment problems) and new ebay-spec front lower arms (ditto), plus minor corrosion of OSR sill that survived another MOT before requiring repair. Over the next 40,000 miles, I've replaced the ditchfinders, two seized track rod ends, the radiator fan, handbrake compensator, front lower arms, gearbox mount, had the aircon re-gassed, had the bumpers re-sprayed, thermostat replaced, and of course had that rusted sill cut out and repaired. And just on Friday the alternator packed up... bushes probably, at 160,000 miles!

Has it been worth it, £3,200 all in for an old Rover? Yes. I have a comfortable practical car in a very appealing colour combo. I know it has been looked after well for most of its life, and the wear and tear issues have been sorted properly with quality parts as & when they arose. I also know I have great support on here as & when anything arises

[Avulon]

Originally Posted by RoverDan

Has it been worth it, £3,200 all in for an old Rover? Yes. I have a comfortable practical car in a very appealing colour combo. I know it has been looked after well for most of its life, and the wear and tear issues have been sorted properly with quality parts as & when they arose. I also know I have great support on here as & when anything arises

Take a look at it from the Bangenomics side. £3,200 for 40k miles and 4 years = 8pence a mile / £800 a year. And you've still got a car at the end of it.

I'll say that again - £800 a year - now compare that to a new Jag XF (for which I heard the advert today for lease/contract hire at £185 a month for some years (might have been £285, I was busy with ripping my hand to shreds fixing mine so not paying full attention) then you give it back. - £2220 a year or £8880 for four years and nothing to show for it... and then don't forget you still need to maintain it on top of that. (including paint and bodywork - so you'll probably have a dent/scratch repair bill when it goes back).

Save

[ZedTeeT]

I think we're all "enthusiasts" that's kinda where we're here in the first place. But to me that's a bit of a blanket term covering a rather broad spectrum of owners. Some are ruled by head and some by heart. Let's face it, we're all in different places, whether it's financially, family, work, blah blah blah the list goes on. I'm sure many more of these great cars would survive if it was possible, but things just aren't that easy or simple for the majority of us.

We do what we can, but can't realistically be expected to do more. Many cars will be saved but more will go to the scrappies, that's just how it is.

[Sebastienclement]

It depends on your mindset.

I have just bought a 2001 Connie SE. To make it perfect it would need:

• Cambelts (V6)
• Low speed fan replacement
• Top mounts
• Drop Links
• Autobox oil change
• New driver's seat
• New washer bottle
• Jacking point welding
• New steering wheel (or at least replacement radio and cruise buttons)
• 1x new key casing

How much change would I get from £1000 after that? I'd probably still owe the garage money!

Have I bought a shed? No. I've bought a really well loved and maintained car which has just gone through an MOT without an advisory. There will always be things to do on our cars for the most part and unfortunately for us who are mechanically incompetent the labour rates are a real killer.

I'll still get it all done though. And the car will still only be worth £800.

[roverbarmy]

I remember when the National Motorcycle Museum burned down, there were several bikes which were "rebuilt". Some of them had melted aluminuim engines and gearboxes, frames which had "unbrazed" during the fire etc. There's a difference between saving and just renewing. Until our beloved vehicles start to become super rare and very expensive, they will continue to be broken up/scrapped. Yes, it seems a shame but it all depends on your interpretation of value, usefulness and perhaps nostalgia. The cost of a clutch, head gasket/s or even a set of V6 belts at "garage" prices would break the bank for many owners.
We live in a throwaway society and that applies to cars too.
Mike

[RoverDan]

Originally Posted by Avulon

Take a look at it from the Bangenomics side. £3,200 for 40k miles and 4 years = 8pence a mile / £800 a year. And you've still got a car at the end of it.

Indeed. But this whole "scrap or save" debate is fraught with contradictions.

Bangernomics works precisely because somebody did buy it new once, perhaps on finance, taking the heavy financial hit of depreciation and presumably monthly payments. No new purchase, no bangernomics 8+ years down the line.

The scrapping of poor cars makes for a ready supply of parts to keep ours on the road, yet does it affect the (re)manufacture of parts? How many of us actually buy new (quality!) parts vs. 2nd hand parts at ~ 25% cost? What happens to our 'scrappage dependency' in 5-10 years time when the parts supply dries up?

I had something of the reverse problem with my MX5: with 2nd gear synchro clearly past its best at unusually low miles, it was far cheaper to buy a good used box (so many being scrapped for rust) than to consider a rebuild, even though I wanted to keep the car 'complete' for sentimental reasons. Actually I couldn't find anyone at the time specialising in such things.

So I took the long view, palleted the original gearbox and stuck it up on the top of the racking in the shed, and will have it rebuilt in ~10 years time when (a) the rusty scrappers are long gone, (b) rebuilds are readily available through specialists (see (a)), and (c) the used gearbox is probably suffering similar deterioration. Then the rebuilt original can be slotted back in

[lady zed]

I think the worrying thing about the car in question is the fact the seller is selling it on the basis of no MOT as they have a new car, when it actual fact it's an MOT failure. On the basis of all the work it needs doing to pass said MOT it's worth nowhere near £350. The corrosion is the most worrying thing and that probably is the biggest factor in whether a car can and should be saved.

It's a worrying time for 75's.............

[Rooney]

It all depends on what something is worth to the owner. I posted these photos of swmbo's jag at the end of last year when it failed its mot in spectacular and unexpected fashion.



The whole underside of the car was rotted through and I mean all of it.

The registration number is AEZ 1434 - you'll see it got a nice new MOT on January 5th.

The rebuild made no economic sense but swmbo loved that car and couldn't tolerate the thought of it being scrapped after so many years loyal service.

Me, I'd have scrapped it in a heartbeat.

[Robson Rover Repair]

I think the big problem is to many owners throw money at these cars in the wrong places. Ignoring good advise. Im forever advising people to buy a better head unit or similar at a later date and do do maintenance or future proofing of the car.

But then they go out and spend £300 on a set of alloy refurbs, refit the original bald tyres and then they need in tank pump, rear arms, and god knows what else for MOT.

And they are screaming help me colin, where can I get parts cheap in Ireland, and then your explaining that cheap parts will let you down.

One particular example, v6 zt owner, beautiful 180. Car came with no service history, at all, 140k auto that he paid £2000 for........... Advised him to do timing belts, and water pump immediately and even passed his details onto someone I knew would do it in a rush at fair price. Both VIS where dead and lent him a set of my spare vis motors and spare inlet manifold I knew was good just to help his MPG situation as it was his daily.

5 months later he hadnt done the timing belt, he had however fitted mg7 tail lights, a double din, black oak everything (including steering wheel) and a monogram leather interior. Plus loads of other stupid things, like refurb alloys everything. Easily dropped another £1500 on it.

Timing belt went snap, destroyed the engine totally and he rings me screaming at me that its my fault after I spent 5 months telling him to stop and he needed to sort the cars maintenance.

He had broken down at side of road, having driven for 3 months with MOT expired, was reported by a resident as he dumped oil and abandoned car outside of bunch of Belfast shops and then PSNI got involved.

Best of all, whole car was crushed complete once I was given authorisation to take my own parts off. I had to go to the scrap yard to get my own parts back of said car informing them that the car had stolen parts on it, the yard where fantastic, and PSNI approved everything with me when i proved what he owned me with some facebook messages that I still had saved.

Moral of the story, I tell someone once now, and if your not smart enough to take the advise, I expect to see your car in the scrap yard and I will be pulling parts off it.

Maintenance saves the cars, unfortunate accidents and expenses proves an ownership love outweighing common sense, ego and idiotic behaviour sends the rest to become tin cans.