Is it that much different?

[Mike Noc]

Originally Posted by SD1too

Thanks Russ, but that increase surely cannot be significant otherwise every engine in the world, diesel and petrol alike, would suffer, according to the explanation posted by T-Cut, from cylinder bore wear and high oil consumption.

Simon

I think the use of low ash oils is more significant in diesel engines fitted with DPFs Simon.

Some information from Comma:


Diesel Particulate Filters (DPFs)

Low SAPS oils are specifically designed to be low in Sulphated Ash

DPFs – How do they work?

Many modern vehicles are now fitted with exhaust systems that minimise the emissions of the vehicles – this helps reduce the impact on the environment of running these vehicles – a key objective for vehicle manufacturers.
All internal combustion engines burn some level of oil by design – even the most modern. Inside a DPF is a ‘mesh’ like structure, which acts like a ‘net’, capturing the harmful soot particles produced by a diesel engine that would otherwise be emitted into the environment. As these ‘nets’ become full the DPF must clean itself out in order to continue working properly – a process known as ‘regeneration’. The exhaust system burns off the soot particles so that while there is still some waste, it is only a fraction of what it would otherwise be.
In order for this ‘regeneration’ to occur the exhaust needs to heat up considerably. This is typically achieved through motorway type driving although some vehicles have the capacity to force the exhaust system to get hot without such driving by adjusting the injection timing via the engine management system.
It’s this issue of ‘re-generation’ that has attracted come complaints from motorists recently – see the BBC Watchdog feature here.
DPFs – you must get the right engine oil

It’s not just about how you drive the car that affects the DPF though. Another key issue to be aware of is getting the right oil for cars with Diesel Particulate Filters. All internal combustion engines, even the most modern, still burn some oil – one reason why 1 in 3 vehicles in the UK has a low oil!

Low SAPS oils

When the oil burns in an engine, naturally it emits some gas but some of these gases could be harmful to a DPF. Low SAPS oils are specifically designed to be low in Sulphated Ash – a by-product of combustion that can cause the ‘mesh’ structure in a DPF to become irreversibly blocked. Such oils that are not low in Phosphorus and Sulphur can also have a significant, detrimental effect on Catalytic Converters – so the issue of getting the right engine oil is relevant to petrol and diesel vehicles alike.

How to find a Low SAPS oil

One way to identify a Low SAPs oil is to look for an ACEA ‘C’ classification – C1, C2, C3 or C4 (It doesn’t necessarily follow that C1, is better or worst than C2, C3 or C4 – they are just different). ACEA (The European Automobile Manufacturers Association) sets standards for engine oils in Europe and its specification for Low SAPS oils begins with a ‘C’. However, most vehicle manufacturers have their own specifications for Low SAPS oils which can make the job of identifying the right oil for your vehicle quite complicated.

[MSS]

This discussion seems to have gone down the ash content avenue which is only really relevant to DPF equipped engines.

As far as I have seen, all the low or medium SAPS oils state this on the packaging, in the marketing literature and data sheets.

I have never known any manufacturer to specify the actual SAP composition of each of their oils. Perhaps this is not surprising as the balance of the constiuents is likely to be commercially confidential.

I would not assume that all the variants of a 5W30 or 5W40 from a single manufacturer will have identical composition. Given that the oils are tested to the different specifications, it is probable that there will be some differences in the balance of the additives. This view is supported by slightly different baseline specifications in the datasheets for the same xW-YY oils targeted at different manufacturer's engines from some oil manufacturer.

The question I would ask is, why use an oil tested to Ford or GM specifications in a PSA engine, when PSA have published detailed technical specifications for oil to be used in their particular engine?

In most cases, whether one selects the GM, Ford, VW or PSA specification compliant variant of an oil actually makes no difefrence to the purchase price.

Originally Posted by Caulkhead

Struggling to follow all the technical stuff, but back to the original issue , why is 5w30 for a ford diesel £11 cheaper than same grade for a Peugeot? All the same ash issues, oil passing the piston rings, etc. must apply to both makes of engines. Sounds like a scam to rip off some customers!
...

I feel that view is based on the assumption that the lack of available technical detail implies a conspiracy. I don't subscribe to the thinking.

The difference in price at Halfords may simply be due to them selling more of the Ford variant than the PSA. There are so many possibilities.

It is a well known fact that the PSA 1.6hdi engine requires a high-quality oil and regular oil change. This is irrespective of whether equipped with a DPF or not. Failure modes of the engine due to oil related issues have been widely docmented. One way of ensuring adequate quality is to buy an oil that meets the detailed specification of the engine manufacturer.

I remember the time when all engines were happy on Duckhams 20W40. It was green and had a very distinctive smell.

[Plezier]

Well Castrol GTX was a sort of OK oil even back in the day however Duckhams Q was a far superior product. Castrol was loaded with additives and many of those were nasty and able to cause all sorts of skin damage as I found out. Rebuilding a Norton 250cc Jubilee engine that had been raun on it caused both hands to blister and the skin to crack open ........................ very enflamed and sore indeed. My old school best friend was an apprentice at a JRT (Jaguar, Rover, Triumph) main dealers who used Duckhams but castrol tried to get teh supply contract but that sort of failed when he asked if they cold top the oil up on his car and it had Duckhams service stickers under the bonnet and yes it was running Duckhams.

The rep got a car allowance NOT a company car and although he worked for castrol he ran his own cars on Duckhams Q so they badgered him to find out why and he mentioned the amount of addictives Castrol needed to use. So I switched to running the bikes on Duckhams Q and the hands healed up. Some soluble cutting fluids used on the engineering machines also made it flare up but nothing like GTX did. With that just closing the hand to a fist would cause the backs of the hands to split open and bleed. As castrol pushed their products so hard we found it easer to order and buy a 5 gallon drum of Duckhams Q especially when in September 79 when I bought the new Triumph T140E Bonnieville. During her running in period a 1/4 pint of Q was added to every 4 gallon tank full of petrol to help lubricate the valve stems and the carb slides and the oil was changed at least every 1000 miles for the first year then we to 5000 mile changes.

My petrol cars like the MGF run on Helix oil from Car Parts 4 Less but I will seek a more suitable oil for teh CDT.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Caulkhead

.. why is 5w30 for a ford diesel £11 cheaper than same grade for a Peugeot? All the same ash issues, oil passing the piston rings, etc. must apply to both makes of engines.

Sounds like a scam to rip off some customers!

Well, many customers are willing to pay for brand loyalty in the belief that they're getting something superior. You can only feel content that you've thought about it and decided not to follow the crowd.

Simon

[Phill_190]

Low ash is very important for modern diesels with dpf.. they are expensive to fix. I know from experiance

[MSS]

Originally Posted by SD1too

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caulkhead
.. why is 5w30 for a ford diesel £11 cheaper than same grade for a Peugeot? All the same ash issues, oil passing the piston rings, etc. must apply to both makes of engines.


Quote:
Sounds like a scam to rip off some customers!
Well, many customers are willing to pay for brand loyalty in the belief that they're getting something superior. You can only feel content that you've thought about it and decided not to follow the crowd.

Simon

Hi Simon,

Given your usually thorough and scientific approach to matters, I am disappointed that you are congratulating a member for having exercised his right to use in his car an oil that is not compliant with the engine manufacturer's specification.

The lubrication system on the 1.6hdi engine is very much like the cooling system on the 1.8 k series. It has low capcity and if not properly serviced, leads to a number of well documented faliure modes. Peugeot and Citroen have gone as far as issuing technical bulletin on the oil change procedure in order to prevent engine failure due to new oil being contaminated by remnants of used oil.

The old ACEA Ax specifications on their own are largely irrelevant with the modern engines requiring low-SAPS oils. The ACEA Cx specifications are highly relevant.

Ford and PSA have been key protagonists of the C specifications. You may find the presentation at the attached link helpful. http://www.southernlubricants.co.uk/...ils%20Short%20[Compatibility%20Mode].pdf

The PSA engines are specified to use 5W30 oil meeting the C2 specification. The OP could easily verify this from his handbook. The "Ford compliant" oil does not appear to meet this spec - it is more likely to meet C1 because Ford engines are specified to use C1 compliant oils.

Whether the difference in oil specifications will have any long-term effect on the OP's engine cannot be determned. However I don't feel that we should be applauding his action of using an incorrect specification oil.

I realy do not believe that this is a "scam to rip off some customers". For example, the Shell Ultra 5W30 is available in variants for Ford, Peugeot/Citroen and VW/Audi... meeting the C1, C2 and C3 specifications respectively. All three variants cost the same. So, I don't see that the different variants are intended as a scam.

Of course, I am happy that the OP is contented with his choice and hope that this state continues follwoing his long-term use of incorrect spec oils.

Maninder.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by mss

Given your usually thorough and scientific approach to matters ...

Thank you Maninder.

I am disappointed that you are congratulating a member for having exercised his right to use in his car an oil that is not compliant with the engine manufacturer's specification.

Did I?

Originally Posted by grivas

The only thing that matters is the ACEA standard.

Originally Posted by SD1too

And the viscosity or "grade".

I thought I had said that an engine oil which meets the viscosity and ACEA requirements of the manufacturer should be used, irrespective of the branding, as quoted above

Maninder, please could you let me know which of my posts is ambiguous and I will gladly correct it. Apologies for the confusion.

Simon

[Caulkhead]

Originally Posted by mss

Hi Simon,

Given your usually thorough and scientific approach to matters, I am disappointed that you are congratulating a member for having exercised his right to use in his car an oil that is not compliant with the engine manufacturer's specification.

The lubrication system on the 1.6hdi engine is very much like the cooling system on the 1.8 k series. It has low capcity and if not properly serviced, leads to a number of well documented faliure modes. Peugeot and Citroen have gone as far as issuing technical bulletin on the oil change procedure in order to prevent engine failure due to new oil being contaminated by remnants of used oil.

The old ACEA Ax specifications on their own are largely irrelevant with the modern engines requiring low-SAPS oils. The ACEA Cx specifications are highly relevant.

Ford and PSA have been key protagonists of the C specifications. You may find the presentation at the attached link helpful. http://www.southernlubricants.co.uk/...ils%20Short%20[Compatibility%20Mode].pdf

The PSA engines are specified to use 5W30 oil meeting the C2 specification. The OP could easily verify this from his handbook. The "Ford compliant" oil does not appear to meet this spec - it is more likely to meet C1 because Ford engines are specified to use C1 compliant oils.

Whether the difference in oil specifications will have any long-term effect on the OP's engine cannot be determned. However I don't feel that we should be applauding his action of using an incorrect specification oil.

I realy do not believe that this is a "scam to rip off some customers". For example, the Shell Ultra 5W30 is available in variants for Ford, Peugeot/Citroen and VW/Audi... meeting the C1, C2 and C3 specifications respectively. All three variants cost the same. So, I don't see that the different variants are intended as a scam.

Of course, I am happy that the OP is contented with his choice and hope that this state continues follwoing his long-term use of incorrect spec oils.

Maninder.

Hi, I didn't use the ford specified oil, as I made clear in my later post. I used a Castrol oil that meets the specs in the handbook.

The scam I suggest is that Halfords charge so much more for oil for a Peugeot rather than a ford.

And remember this Peugeot is quite old (2005), and has had oil changes before Halfords started marketing make specific oils.

Nobody influenced me, I just asked why members though that such a price difference was justified.

[MSS]

Originally Posted by Caulkhead

Hi, I didn't use the ford specified oil, as I made clear in my later post. I used a Castrol oil that meets the specs in the handbook.

The scam I suggest is that Halfords charge so much more for oil for a Peugeot rather than a ford.

And remember this Peugeot is quite old (2005), and has had oil changes before Halfords started marketing make specific oils.

Nobody influenced me, I just asked why members though that such a price difference was justified.

Hi - To answer one of your earlier questions, Castrol do produce an oil specifically for your engine from the 2001 to 2007 era. It is Castrol Magnatec 5W30 C2. If you go on the Castrol website and put your car's regsitration in the selector, I think you will find that it is this oil that is recomemnded rather than their generic 5W30.

I think the debate had moved on from your original question - the simple answer to which would be that it is all to do with the economics of stocking specific variants of oils, volumes sold etc. rather than any "scam" as such.

[Caulkhead]

Thanks, and do Castrol charge lots more for Peugeot oil rather than ford oil. Remember it was £11 more for 5 litres of the Halford's special!

Maybe I have been lucky in that my 307 is still under 30k miles, and I may live to regret using generic 5w30.

Still think price difference is unjustified, and like Pete remember when GTX did it all.

Thanks for all who have advised, and commented. Next time will buy a ford and benefit from cheaper oil!

Love my CDT!