Go Back   The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums > Social Forums > Social Forum
Register FAQ Image Gallery Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read
Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 16th April 2020, 20:54   #11
macafee2
This is my second home
 
Rover 75 Saloon & Tourer

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 14,890
Thanks: 1,630
Thanked 3,032 Times in 2,181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avulon View Post
... And meanwhile robots steal the jobs of the semi-skilled manufacturing worker, computers have stolen the hordes of office jobs from typing pool to accounts clerk.


... And we conveniently forget the dreamed of utopian society that we all aspired to - where the machines did all the work so we could live life and pursue our own interests in peace. Instead we decide to start namecalling 'dole bludgers', 'idle', 'lazy', and the like - because their jobs have been taken by machinery and automation, and it's easier to pigeonhole groups of people than look at individuals.



At the same time we want to pay the minimum we can get away with for the essentials of life - so go to the supermarkets who give it to us by screwing the farmer down so tight that they can't afford to pay minimum wage to the 'unskilled' agricultural workers that we depend upon to make that food available.


And then we scoff in incredulity that we have to go further afield to find people prepared to work to live.... And blame the growers???????????????



Well said Wraymond - Like you I too will spend a little more for fresh food, Use local small shops that source goods locally where possible and practical. But I also fall for the mass cheapness of the likes of Amazon / Morrison's / Sainsbury every day (I'm ashamed to admit it).



I work full time and am continuing to do so from home. It's unlikely that I will be furloughed at all. Even given my unfitness and age I'd happily go and pick crops for a day a week for very little direct or immediate reward if I had nowt else to do.

hang on a second, yes we have unemployed who cannot work and cannot find work of any sort but we also have those that do not want to work.
Those that do not want to work are the targets not those that want to but cannot. As for cost of groceries, surly if farmers are paid more and the cost is passed on to the consumer by every retail outlet then that is the price people will pay. It is when undercutting happens that the "saving" is forced onto the farmer.

Did I see a program on Rolls Royce where a farming family had 8 Rolls Royces?
No one person is to blame, it is collective

macafee2
macafee2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th April 2020, 22:54   #12
wraymond
I will find or make a way
 
wraymond's Avatar
 
75 Auto 2.5 SE

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Westcliff on Sea
Posts: 5,168
Thanks: 423
Thanked 1,680 Times in 1,014 Posts
Default

I'm not in the slightest way objecting or criticising the benefits system. Indeed, I'm proud of our society that looks after the incapacitated, the genuinely unwell or the truly incapable. And as for the NHS, well - I have good reason to thank it for my life - twice.

On the other hand, and in view of the current furloughing, another Americanism we could do without, I have serious doubts that every beneficiary will be deserving, or that all claimants or their erstwhile employers will be squeaky clean. Nor will I praise the chairmen or directors of the big companies who do not forego their Midas level bonuses and share options/expenses rackets while they claim finance from the rest of us. Crises bring out the best and the unbelievable worst in some people, I hope 'their names are taken' and publicised.

On a personal note, Celia and I were today considering our own position in the light of current events. We both are incredibly, for the first time ever, hugely relieved to be old, no - ancient, and beyond the danger zone of imposed poverty due to whatever our betters (we no longer have 'elders') and seniors deem to be in our best interests. Of course, they are always wrong anyway.

That's it, midnight, off to dreams of better things, following a wee one from my bottle of Mandarine Napolean. And I don't even care if it is French.
__________________
member no. 235
wraymond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2020, 13:47   #13
wraymond
I will find or make a way
 
wraymond's Avatar
 
75 Auto 2.5 SE

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Westcliff on Sea
Posts: 5,168
Thanks: 423
Thanked 1,680 Times in 1,014 Posts
Default

Might be useful to research the level of:
1. Farm failures leading to local communities dispersing.
2. 2nd & 3rd generations not following their family into farming.
3. Farms selling part or all of their land to developers who value the land way over agricultural capital - soon to lose agri-subsidy from Europe!

The facts are that more than a few farmers know labour rates in Eastern Europe are vastly different to here and seek to utilise the opportunity to capitalise. Also as said earlier the supermarkets have them over a barrel and are completely and ruthlessly dictating what they, the supermarkets, want to pay.

The farmers are not all single minded animal enthusiasts but are also in business to make profit and I for one don't blame them for a minute. As a young child I lived on a farm in North Thoresby, Lincs. for some years and first heard of the 24 hour working day. The world has moved on from picture-postcard Haywains and many of those quaint farmhouses are second homes for city dwellers.
__________________
member no. 235
wraymond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2020, 14:03   #14
Nick Greg
Posted a thing or two
 
Honda Insight Hybrid

Join Date: May 2015
Location: Brighouse
Posts: 1,157
Thanks: 691
Thanked 424 Times in 280 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wraymond View Post
Might be useful to research the level of:
1. Farm failures leading to local communities dispersing.
2. 2nd & 3rd generations not following their family into farming.
3. Farms selling part or all of their land to developers who value the land way over agricultural capital - soon to lose agri-subsidy from Europe!

The facts are that more than a few farmers know labour rates in Eastern Europe are vastly different to here and seek to utilise the opportunity to capitalise. Also as said earlier the supermarkets have them over a barrel and are completely and ruthlessly dictating what they, the supermarkets, want to pay.

The farmers are not all single minded animal enthusiasts but are also in business to make profit and I for one don't blame them for a minute. As a young child I lived on a farm in North Thoresby, Lincs. for some years and first heard of the 24 hour working day. The world has moved on from picture-postcard Haywains and many of those quaint farmhouses are second homes for city dwellers.
Having been a supplier for decades to Supermarkets this is correct. Whatever they say its a race to the bottom on price and some more. They are ruthless and have no loyalty to suppliers whatsoever. 2 for 1 and BOGOFF offers are largely funded by supermarkets expecting the suppliers to chip in with extra discounts. They will drop on you at a moments notice to improve prices etc etc. Anyway you get the point. I see milk prices have fallen off a cliff. The stuff is being poured down drains. I for one would not object if milk was double its current price on the proviso the extra goes to the farmers. Many suppliers dream of supplying supermarkets and national chains. Its far from a dream folks, its a ruddy nightmare.
Nick Greg is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2020, 14:41   #15
macafee2
This is my second home
 
Rover 75 Saloon & Tourer

Join Date: Sep 2012
Location: Lincoln
Posts: 14,890
Thanks: 1,630
Thanked 3,032 Times in 2,181 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avulon View Post
Because like you and I many are actual human beings, they pay what they can afford and still make a living themselves.





No state pension then?






Not so easy when you can't advertise the job because you can't afford to pay minimum wage for it.






And I suppose you think that there's someone qualified well enough to decide who falls into which category with 100% accuracy?






Targets aside - Not sure how you are drawing black and white lines there.
'IF' farmers were paid what it would actually cost if labourers were paid minimum wage and 'IF' they could get local people to do that hard graft for the minimum wage then I'm sure you are right - people will pay that (or starve if they can't afford it). OK, back to the real world where the supermarkets are the biggest buyers and compete with each other down to the penny on all prices - undercutting is not an occasional thing - it's how the market works.


And I've no idea what you've seen on TV. To say that stinking rich farmers is representative of the whole industry would be so far from the truth it's unbelievable.





'benefits available ... add up to more than your net income if you chose [sic] to work' ?? In your dreams maybe. I've never been better off (had higher income) unemployed than employed in all my life. And a lot of that was before there was even a concept of minimum wage.

I think we are getting our wires crossed

re And I've no idea what you've seen on TV. To say that stinking rich farmers is representative of the whole industry would be so far from the truth it's unbelievable.

I never said it was representative I was saying that I'm sure there was a program about RR and a farming family had 8 or was it they had had 7 previously and were on the 8th?

The pay for the farm workers I assume is linked to what the farmer gets and industry pay. I do not think either living wage or minimum wage is enough. Even in 2024 I have my doubts about it. Ask me what it should be, don't know, partly because I don't know what I earnt full time but not less then £10

I doubt I could cover all bases with an opinion.

macafee2
macafee2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th April 2020, 15:14   #16
wraymond
I will find or make a way
 
wraymond's Avatar
 
75 Auto 2.5 SE

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Westcliff on Sea
Posts: 5,168
Thanks: 423
Thanked 1,680 Times in 1,014 Posts
Default

I think it's fair to say it's a matter of perception. The public have a sort of 'family' feeling about supermarkets, not exactly that they are kindly and considerate but more in a familiarity sense. When in fact they are as Scrooge-like as a Scrooge is.

I hinted earlier at living on a farm but that's not the whole story. For 10 years from aged 20 I worked for a supermarket company, still trading today, as a district manager for the area from Southend to South London.

The company was taken over by another, still trading today and, trust me, they were and still are the most miserly and skinflinty outfit I have ever come across. The management were as brutal with the staff as they were with the suppliers and I attended several board meetings with the owner, a very famous man, and his sons. I have sympathy for those that work in that industry because of the serf treatment that was and is the same today.
__________________
member no. 235
wraymond is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2020, 09:25   #17
markypicks
Gets stuck in
 
markypicks's Avatar
 
rover 75 saloon cdt club se re map 160 bhp

Join Date: Dec 2018
Location: sheffield
Posts: 558
Thanks: 227
Thanked 169 Times in 135 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by wraymond View Post
The problem is now the same as it has been for some time. Growers will not pay a living wage for home-grown labour. They won't compete with the benefit system.

The Eastern European seasonal pickers are grateful for whatever work they can get, back breaking though it is, and by all accounts even at the paltry minimum rates on offer, earn more than they could at home.

Our benefit system pays people not to work and is another way to mask the true position of the 'unemployment' economy. It goes a long way to reminding us of the same system that employed hundreds of hop pickers that used to migrate from London to Kent for the season to live in sheds, all those years ago.

People are still even now being exploited. I'd be happy to pay an extra £2 for a bag of spuds or 50p a day extra on a lettuce instead of the latest computer game every other month to a Chinese factory.

Fortunately nobody remembers Georgian times under another system with some similarities and the tragic starvation of families in Ireland. There ain't nothing new.
spot on wraymond rgds mark
markypicks is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2020, 12:56   #18
mileshawk56
Posted a thing or two
 
mileshawk56's Avatar
 
MGZT

Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Berkshire
Posts: 1,272
Thanks: 1,738
Thanked 299 Times in 216 Posts
Default

with regard to the seasonal "foreign workers" they are and have been a fact of life for farmers, flower and fruit growers for at least a hundred years and gang masters/workers were/are subject to various Regulations as to how many from where etc. I would think the sudden availability of cheap labour from the EU in recent years had a effect on what growers would grow or expanded the acreage in. Certainly since the end of WW2 there have been seasonal workers, students, school leavers and all sorts treated it as a "different" experience. Its not new and the work shy wont do it for the reasons that have been given. My father went apple picking for his summer holidays for many years- just because it was not his day job. Chris S.
mileshawk56 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th April 2020, 13:05   #19
gnu
Gets stuck in
 
gnu's Avatar
 
MG ZT

Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Bristol
Posts: 684
Thanks: 332
Thanked 164 Times in 133 Posts
Default

I used to do fruit picking when I lived in Norfolk for a bit of extra money (mainly strawberries, raspberries, black or red currents). It was hard work and you were paid per-basket, but I found it a nice break from my usual indoor jobs. As I wasn't on benefits or furloughed, it didn't affect anything there, which I suspect is what deters some now.
__________________
gnu
gnu is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:49.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright © 2006-2023, The Rover 75 & MG ZT Owners Club Ltd