JLR shedding 5,000 jobs

[mystabe]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

Excellently put!!

I had to laugh the other day when it was reported that it was ten years ago this month that Al Gore stated that the ice caps would be gone in five years.

How “inconvenient” the truth is!!

So you're a climate change denier as well? Really ?

[andymc]

Originally Posted by mileshawk56

I wonder how VAG will manage that price? Some likely imaginative accounting and or covert German banking action. The reason the British buy German cars they dominate the market and many British people are "brand"snobs. This has been the case for many years. Chris.S.

That could well be the reason for many - however regardless of what the reason might be, it still remains a reality.

Re VW's EV pricing, it may simply be down to economies of scale. Hyundai produce something in the order of 5000 models each of the Kona and the Ioniq every month, half of which are reserved for their domestic (South Korean) market and half of which are for the rest of the world. Volkswagen are simply a much, much bigger outfit - the Zwickau plant alone would easily exceed Hyundai's entire EV manufacturing output by a factor of 5, and even if it is only two additional plants in Germany which they're switching to produce EVs (for now), they're doing the same with a plant in Shanghai - I don't know whether that is one of their two Chinese new-builds or an existing plant changing over.

Either way, they're talking about starting off with 100000 EVs in 2020 just for the European market and ramping up from there. They also have much greater market presence, and an established diversification pathway into different sectors via their badge portfolio (i.e. Audi, VW, Seat, Skoda). This means it's highly likely that when they were agreeing their battery supply to 2025 - which they have done - they would have been able to get a much lower per-unit price than other, smaller-volume manufacturers were able to do.

Simply put, the electric motors are there already and it's just a matter of the battery price continuing to fall. It wouldn't surprise me if they've been able to secure a price below £100/kWh, which would be around a tenth of what Nissan would have been paying when they were producing the original Leaf back in 2011. I've seen projections of just $80USD per kWh after 2020, so this is in no way unreasonable.

Finally, it's also worth remembering that an EV is a much simpler machine than an ICE car - somewhere around 30 moving parts, in comparison to 2000. The cost of production is inevitably lower.

[LeRich]

Originally Posted by andymc

The cost of production is inevitably lower.

The cost of assembly yes, the cost of production unlikely.

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by mystabe

So you're a climate change denier as well? Really ?

The only people that “deny” that the climate changes are those who seek to try to inflict the ridiculous hockey stick graph on us all as reality when it is nothing but the result of a badly written computer model based on a limited data set of Bristlecone Pines.

The upward kick of the hockey stick is only dramatic if viewed against a long straight shaft.

The problem was that slap bang in the middle of the shaft was the reality of the changing climate that was the Medieval Warm Period.

The leaked emails from the CRU at the UofEA confirm that the hump that actually existed and is a matter of record via real empirical data had to be eradicated - erased.

So I believe that climate changes - what I don’t like is people manipulating data to try to prove that for decades the climate didn’t change at all.

As a Microbiologist and Biochemist - admittedly from many years ago - I know the role of CO2 within Krebs Cycle - it is vital to all life. It is not a poison.

It is a trace gas representing just 0.039% of the earth atmosphere - or 399ppm which “Shock Horror!!” - may be nudging 400ppm !!

I was trained to the old fashioned notion that a non-sceptical scientist is an oxymoron. I still believe this to be the correct standing for true science.

To call anyone a “Denier” simply because they question suspect data and have greater scientific rigour and standards than you is moronic.

[andymc]

Originally Posted by LeRich

The cost of assembly yes, the cost of production unlikely.

Meh, whichever - my point is that the cost of bringing these cars to showrooms is likely to be lower for the two reasons mentioned, i.e. lower per unit cost of the batteries due to higher purchase volumes in combination with lower assembly costs of a less mechanically complex end product.

[Lancpudn]

Originally Posted by andymc

If any company looks capable of doing that, it's VAG (ironically, given their recent history). I think it's hard to overstate just how big an impact they are set to have over the next couple of years with the new ID/Neo platform, which is designed from the ground up to be an EV which will be used across the group and in various formats - hatchback, larger saloon, MPV/minibus etc. VW maintain that the pricing will be set at the same starting point as their diesel range, which AFAIR is somewhere around £22k. If they stick to their word on that, then with the entry-level model having 180bhp and 200 miles of range (the next one up having over 300) and being capable of charging twice as fast as its mainstream competitors, and with running costs of an EV being at most one sixth those of an ICE car, I think it'll make significant inroads into the market. They've secured substantial battery supply and apparently three of their factories are now being entirely converted to produce EVs - I'm not sure whether that includes the one which has already completed that process.

Yes VW will have the best chance over the next two years of producing a range of BEV's than any other car manufacturer. I see the VW ID is out testing in south Africa at present.






I've been reading about those new EU emission limits and it looks like the German & French car giants VAG & PSA are in line for enormous fines of €1.4billion as early as 2021 if they don't improve their fuel economy figures.

[rab60bit]

Originally Posted by Lancpudn

Yes VW will have the best chance over the next two years of producing a range of BEV's than any other car manufacturer. I see the VW ID is out testing in south Africa at present.






I've been reading about those new EU emission limits and it looks like the German & French car giants VAG & PSA are in line for enormous fines of €1.4billion as early as 2021 if they don't improve their fuel economy figures.

Hello everyone.
Some very interesting stuff on the subject, keep the EV comparisons coming 'cos I'm a newbie dumkopf on the subject.
I know it's something that may not be quite so much of a localised impact once we depart the EU.... - but a HUGE amount of the western worlds tractive movement (and really nasty emmissions) is via big diesel trucks (and ships). How big will the batteries of their EV replacements going to be and how far do you reckon they will be able to travel on a single charge??

[kaiser]

In Denmark they compared warranties on different cars. The European cars fell totally through compared to cars from Asia.
https://fdm.dk/alt-om-biler/dine-ret...-pa-bilmaerker
I see daily reminders of absolute stupidity, over design and gadgets totally unneeded and just designed to make cars more pricey and difficult to maintain.
The Germans in my view are absolute masters in making something designed to n'th degree and totally overcomplicated.
The dreams of these manufacturers is to lease something to you for a lifetime, and to prevent you from owning anything. Securing a "steady" income from you for the rest of your life.

If I had to buy anything new with my head, it would be something simple and not from Germany.

And, - so sorry Brian - politics intrude again! Once they design/invent/construct something new, they run to the politicians and "lobby" to make the new stuff compulsory. Then we get that, whether we want it or not.
When we look at the average age of many new politicians and their limited life experience, and the money involved, it is absolutely certain that we are at the sharp end of a money making machine, these politicians are easily influenced and bought. With the liberals thinking it is their God given right to force their life visions on us, you can't even claim personal freedom and own choice anymore. They are getting used to us complying with seat belt laws, helmet laws etc etc. Things that undoubtedly helps, yet ultimately should be private choices.
And that is where "climate change" comes in so handily. This is a totally unproven, and unprovable concept and thus ideal, to force us into a behaviour mode that will cost money and direct our expenditure on taxes, replacements and obsolescence. This is the ultimate goal of the lobbyists, an eternal ongoing unwinnable effort that can be directed and turned to suit the global elite. Nice and easy, income generated until people revolt!
This is the critical thinking I so sorely miss from the majority of people. Who says? On what basis? and the last: what is in it for them?

Personal freedom, our most precious asset - under relentless attack!

[MSS]

Originally Posted by kaiser

In Denmark they compared warranties on different cars. The European cars fell totally through compared to cars from Asia.
https://fdm.dk/alt-om-biler/dine-ret...-pa-bilmaerker
I see daily reminders of absolute stupidity, over design and gadgets totally unneeded and just designed to make cars more pricey and difficult to maintain.
The Germans in my view are absolute masters in making something designed to n'th degree and totally overcomplicated.
The dreams of these manufacturers is to lease something to you for a lifetime, and to prevent you from owning anything. Securing a "steady" income from you for the rest of your life.

If I had to buy anything new with my head, it would be something simple and not from Germany.


.................

I respect your points about from a personal perspective but they do not represent how the majority of car buyers feel.

Long warranties have been a standard mechanism for making undesirable cars appear a little more desirable to those who do not desire something special. They represent nothing more than a costed insurance policy as a sales incentive The Japanese were the first to use the approach before their cars became desirable.

The Germans do engineer their products well. This is their strength as indicated by the volumes of people that buy or desire to buy a sophisticated German car all over the world. The fact that the majority of the buying public desire German engineered cars is that they are considered highly desirable by the buying public.

Jaguar's success of recent years has been driven by the fact that they have been producing cars which are very similar to their German counterparts.

Personally, I dream of the day that I buy a sophisticated Jaguar XF, a Mecredes CLS or a BMW 6 series.

p.s. Have you noticed that the majority of MGR owners want all the sophistication in their cars and turn their noses up at lower spec cars with words like "poverty spec"?

[MSS]

Originally Posted by mystabe

So you're a climate change denier as well? Really ?

Mr Mystabe - you behaviour is incredibly disappointing. To ask a fellow member who constantly and consistently argues against the phenomenon generally known as 'climate change' whether he/she is a " climate change denier" is out of order and a sign of ignorant, moronic behaviour.

It appears that you have learnt very little to nothing from your more scientific colleagues on the forum. If you had done so, you would be regularly calling those who do not share your views on climate change, names such as "Green Taliban", "Green Zealots", "Ignorant" and "Idiots". This is the established manner in which to hold an exchange on what is likely to prove the single most important contributor to the change in our planet's environment. The approach shows scientific rigour and a touch of class in the way that rigour is communicated.

So, please learn from your fellow members, refrain from your moronic approach and demonstrate a touch of class as done by the point observer.

In the meantime, we shall try our best to hide our disappointment at your conduct.