Help me please, watching recordings BT

[macafee2]

I do not understand.

I recoded a number of programs a year ago onto my BT Youview box.
This last week I have had no access to my BT TV package.

I have watched a number of programs this week that I had recorded.
For some reason I cannot watch Air Crash Investigation that was recorded about a year ago.

Spoke to BT and they say I need to be connected to my BT package via broadband to watch the recordings that are on my Youview box.

I do not understand why and they could not explain in a way I could understand except to say I need to be connected to my BT package via broadband to watch the recordings that are on my Youview box.

It is as if I have an icon on my Youview box and the recording is held elsewhere.

What purpose does the BB play in watching recordings?

macafee2

[clf]

Originally Posted by macafee2

I do not understand.

I recoded a number of programs a year ago onto my BT Youview box.
This last week I have had no access to my BT TV package.

I have watched a number of programs this week that I had recorded.
For some reason I cannot watch Air Crash Investigation that was recorded about a year ago.

Spoke to BT and they say I need to be connected to my BT package via broadband to watch the recordings that are on my Youview box.

I do not understand why and they could not explain in a way I could understand except to say I need to be connected to my BT package via broadband to watch the recordings that are on my Youview box.

It is as if I have an icon on my Youview box and the recording is held elsewhere.

What purpose does the BB play in watching recordings?

macafee2

Think of it this way;

you rent a service, and stop paying for this rental, you no longer have access to this service.

The service though is not access to the programming, but rather the access to the software that operates the programming, ie video footage. Let's call this MPEG4BT.

All the video is downloaded in MPEG4BT format and is available to view whilst you pay for the licensing of the MPEG4BT software.

The Youview box has firmware or an operating system. It seeks permissions to operate the software via BT/TalkTalk/Sky etc (ie checks that you have paid for the bill/subscription). This used to be governed via a card, but I believe it is software driven now. This permission is not forthcoming, so blocks access to the software to play the footage stored on the hard drive.

It is a similar business model that some software companies use now to protect copyright (Adobe, MS Office etc).

I realise that it looks like you have a failed/faulty service rather than a cancelled subscription, but the principle would still apply for certain faults.

[macafee2]

Originally Posted by clf

Think of it this way;

you rent a service, and stop paying for this rental, you no longer have access to this service.

The service though is not access to the programming, but rather the access to the software that operates the programming, ie video footage. Let's call this MPEG4BT.

All the video is downloaded in MPEG4BT format and is available to view whilst you pay for the licensing of the MPEG4BT software.

The Youview box has firmware or an operating system. It seeks permissions to operate the software via BT/TalkTalk/Sky etc (ie checks that you have paid for the bill/subscription). This used to be governed via a card, but I believe it is software driven now. This permission is not forthcoming, so blocks access to the software to play the footage stored on the hard drive.

It is a similar business model that some software companies use now to protect copyright (Adobe, MS Office etc).

I realise that it looks like you have a failed/faulty service rather than a cancelled subscription, but the principle would still apply for certain faults.

ok that makes sense, wtf the BT naughty word could not have explained it in that sort of way. I now feel ripped off, I paid once and now need to pay again. I would have thought paying at the outset the check would be done to make sure I am entitled to record.
I will have to see if there is anything in the terms and conditions but I will probably find them so hard to read I'll give up.

Appreciate an explanation I can understand. Thank you

macafee2

[clf]

Originally Posted by macafee2

ok that makes sense, wtf the BT naughty word could not have explained it in that sort of way. I now feel ripped off, I paid once and now need to pay again. I would have thought paying at the outset the check would be done to make sure I am entitled to record.
I will have to see if there is anything in the terms and conditions but I will probably find them so hard to read I'll give up.

Appreciate an explanation I can understand. Thank you

macafee2

you do have the 'right' to record, but only for personal use, and record only using BT's software. BT will have paid royalties to the original program makers/broadcasters, and they will transfer some of those albeit limited rights based upon what their (BT) rights and conditions were.

These no doubt would have had some kind of proviso that the end user (you) could not easily download (record), to keep, or distribute elsewhere. This is where the software (MPEG4BT) would come in.

BT (sky etc) own the rights to the software the programs play on, Universal (or BBC etc) own the copyright to the film/program, and you own the right to use the equipment whilst you pay for that use. It would be unreasonable to expect the end user to store a film to watch a long time later - I would suggest a month would be a reasonable amount of time.

I am sure you could obtain a program (they are called codecs, and or containers, but to keep it straightforward, call it a program) to play it, or a converter to play it. Then you could remove the hard drive from the YouView box and plug it into a computer. I have done this with a Sky box, and could see the programs that were recorded, but nothing would play them. I never looked into it though.

By doing it this way, it gives the supplier (BT, Sky etc) the ability to control the content and satisfy the original copyright holders. Also a little leverage for them to 'hold' onto you as a customer.

Incidentally, once you stop paying Sky (and TalkTalk) for their service, whilst you can watch basic service, you can no longer record.

[Teflon]

I'm with Virgin Media. I recently accepted a deal which involved adding Sky Cinema to my package (among other things), so I can now record lots of HD movies from Sky .

Thing is though, if I were to drop Sky Cinema from my package, I'll still have all the recordings, but I wouldn't be able to watch them, even though I still have a Virgin Media package. It's for checks such as this that the broadband link is required.

Cliff

[macafee2]

Originally Posted by clf

you do have the 'right' to record, but only for personal use, and record only using BT's software. BT will have paid royalties to the original program makers/broadcasters, and they will transfer some of those albeit limited rights based upon what their (BT) rights and conditions were.

These no doubt would have had some kind of proviso that the end user (you) could not easily download (record), to keep, or distribute elsewhere. This is where the software (MPEG4BT) would come in.

BT (sky etc) own the rights to the software the programs play on, Universal (or BBC etc) own the copyright to the film/program, and you own the right to use the equipment whilst you pay for that use. It would be unreasonable to expect the end user to store a film to watch a long time later - I would suggest a month would be a reasonable amount of time.

I am sure you could obtain a program (they are called codecs, and or containers, but to keep it straightforward, call it a program) to play it, or a converter to play it. Then you could remove the hard drive from the YouView box and plug it into a computer. I have done this with a Sky box, and could see the programs that were recorded, but nothing would play them. I never looked into it though.

By doing it this way, it gives the supplier (BT, Sky etc) the ability to control the content and satisfy the original copyright holders. Also a little leverage for them to 'hold' onto you as a customer.

Incidentally, once you stop paying Sky (and TalkTalk) for their service, whilst you can watch basic service, you can no longer record.

everyone has been paid, I paid BT, they paid royalties etc etc.
As far as I m concerned I paid to record the program and store it. I should not be time limited to when I watch it.
Why do you think unreasonable to store for a long time, I paid for it? I want to watch stuff that I recorded a year ago as I now have the time.
What if I want to take the set top box on holiday and watch stuff I recorded while I am away?

Hopefully next week I will be able to watch it as I will be connected to BT broadband and I do have a package with them. If I cant then rightly or wrongly I will complain to BT and not some knob in a call centre. I have nothing to lose by complaining

macafee2

[clf]

Originally Posted by macafee2

everyone has been paid, I paid BT, they paid royalties etc etc.
As far as I m concerned I paid to record the program and store it. I should not be time limited to when I watch it.
Why do you think unreasonable to store for a long time, I paid for it? I want to watch stuff that I recorded a year ago as I now have the time.
macafee2

Ultimately, as far as you are concerned is of no issue with BT or the copyright owner. They will only be concerned with their terms and conditions. There will be some mention of availability, whilst paying, stated within the terms and conditions. You do not have the right to 'store' it, for an 'unreasonable' amount of time, unless you 'buy' it as you can in some systems.

The idea behind recording the TV show/film, is to allow you to watch another channel or while you are unable to, and then watch the recorded show at a more convenient time. It is not to keep the TV show/film for an indeterminate amount of time (hence the reasonable consideration), as this would mean a loss in sales of movies or in the case of a TV show, potential lost revenue from advertising (if you record it, keep it, then ignore it when it is repeated, advertising revenue of the repeated show is lost).

You do NOT have the right to keep the TV show/movie, those rights will be covered I am sure in the terms and conditions. It was the same as having a VHS recorder. You did not even have the right to record a show, to watch it at a later date, but to pursue this would have been impossible, and bad publicity. You were expected to not keep it after watched though, nor were you permitted to lend it to a friend or a colleague.

The same applies with CDs, albums, pre-recorded tapes or even computer games, (except for multiple use as these are original recordings) however you are permitted to make a single back up copy of an original recording, for back up purposes. Broadcast TV show/movie is not an original recording to you (think back to the early days of downloading, Napster etc, the lawyers initially went after the source of the uploads - I copy a DVD, upload it, and a million people download it, I would be the one they would have chased after rather than the million who downloaded it).

Originally Posted by macafee2

What if I want to take the set top box on holiday and watch stuff I recorded while I am away?

macafee2

As long as the set top box remains in the territory you have signed up in (UK) I could not see an issue with this, providing you are still paying for your BT subscription, even if it is played on another broadband provider line (although that may be part of the terms and conditions, from the copyright owner, that it will only work if using a BT service - ie allowing BT to retain control thereby preventing you 'distributing' it illegally). Taking it abroad, would be breaching BT's terms with the copyright owner, I am sure. Particularly if a show was yet to be released in that territory.

There are issues with certain regional programming though (STV, or ITV London etc), but I do not think this would be an issue on a recorded program. To explain this, I can access some english regional ITV stations, but some will display a message saying this is not available in your region. To overcome this, I have to reprogram my TV and change the broadcasting region to one of that particular region, via postcode. It is a common issue in Northern Ireland, as we have access to a lot southern irish tv (RTE). Some football matches are broadcast live on RTE simultaneously as Sky/BT Sport, but if your TV is set up as Northern Irish/UK, then it blocks the signal. Another off the top of my head, I cannot watch repeats (!) of Mrs.Brown's Boys on RTE, the screen goes blank! These issues are due to the broadcasting rights, Sky, BT Sport or BBC etc - there are ways around this though, by using different aerials or transmitters etc. My father's TV is set up in this way as a legacy from the analogue broadcasting.

This is digressing though, but the principles apply, and in your case it ultimately comes down to BT being able to control how their programs are managed.

Originally Posted by macafee2

Hopefully next week I will be able to watch it as I will be connected to BT broadband and I do have a package with them. If I cant then rightly or wrongly I will complain to BT and not some knob in a call centre. I have nothing to lose by complaining

macafee2

I could see no reason for this to be an issue, unless they specify time constraints on their programming, they no longer have a partnership with the copyright holder, or have updated their software/codecs. This actually happens though in some catch up shows on iPLayer et al, being only available for certain periods of time. But since your particular scenario, would only affect a small number of customers, I would imagine that there would be no consideration to this.

[macafee2]

Having completed the house move and connected my BT Youview box to my BT hub which in turn is connected to BT broadband I still could not watch Air Crash Investigation but worse, oh yes it got worse. I could not watch anything that was part of my subscription such as BT sport. I could watch it via my PC but not via the Freeview box.
I called BT but they could not revolve the problem and passed it to TCM? As I did not receive a call back after about 6 hours I called BT again.

I was told that BT no longer has a licence to broadcast National Geographic, the channel that broadcast Air Crash Investigation and that is why I cannot watch Air Crash Investigation which is what clf said. My issue with that is that I paid BT, BT paid National Geographic so both have made their profit but I cannot watch what I paid for.
In truth as far as I am concerned I should be able to watch the program when I want, I paid for it.

I was offered £10 compensation which I said was an insult. BT pointed out that with my then package there was a lot for me to watch and it was only a fraction of the package I could not now see. I pointed out that I pay for BT sport and there is a lot of sport to watch yet I only watch the Liverpool matches, my choice but I pay for the whole package just for that little part. They offered £20 compensation. I said I'd prefer to watch the recordings and that they spanned 5 months. they offered £50 compensation, I think that is the cost of the package for 5 months. As I was never going to get to watch the programs I agreed. I'd still prefer to watch Air Crash Investigation then have the money.

Now to solve the second problem, unable to watch what I'm paying for via freeview box. BT offered compensation for this but I turned it down, BT had provided me with additional free internet access for 3 months so I was able to watch BT sport at my previous address on my laptop so I was able to watch what I was paying for.

Get a call from TMC? it seems back in December when the house move order was placed they messed it up and the chap had spent hours yesterday fixing it.
Thank goodness I did not turn the Freeview box on 5 minutes before a Liverpool match.

Important lesson learnt about subscription TV.
I see National Geographic are again broadcasting Air Crash Investigation via subscription but it cannot be recorded.


FWIW, I am not aware that any Freeview channels have a time limit on when I watch a recording.

Although it seems I have gotten to the bottom of the issue I have not got the result I wanted.

thank you clf for explaining at the outset what the problem was, you were right.

macafee2

[clf]

Originally Posted by macafee2

Having completed the house move and connected my BT Youview box to my BT hub which in turn is connected to BT broadband I still could not watch Air Crash Investigation but worse, oh yes it got worse. I could not watch anything that was part of my subscription such as BT sport. I could watch it via my PC but not via the Freeview box.
I called BT but they could not revolve the problem and passed it to TCM? As I did not receive a call back after about 6 hours I called BT again.

I was told that BT no longer has a licence to broadcast National Geographic, the channel that broadcast Air Crash Investigation and that is why I cannot watch Air Crash Investigation which is what clf said. My issue with that is that I paid BT, BT paid National Geographic so both have made their profit but I cannot watch what I paid for.
In truth as far as I am concerned I should be able to watch the program when I want, I paid for it.

You didnt pay for the TV show, you paid for the rental of the TV show (well actually the the equipment and software to watch the show). This is the same principle as you having Sky telephone line. Sky rent the phone line from BT (who own it), you rent the line and service from Sky. You cancel your landline service after 3 years and no longer have a land line connection, but the hardware is still there (wiring, from box to the pole, the box and the phone). You did not make a phone call at all in the last three months that you had Sky. Six months after you ended the service, your mobile phone breaks down, so you plug in the landline telephone, and no dial tone, and no ability to call out.

Alternatively, perhaps think of it like this, renting a van for 7 days, but you only used it for 6 days, but kept it on your drive for the 7, then coming back to the company after 3 months, to say you wanted the van.

I was offered £10 compensation which I said was an insult. BT pointed out that with my then package there was a lot for me to watch and it was only a fraction of the package I could not now see. I pointed out that I pay for BT sport and there is a lot of sport to watch yet I only watch the Liverpool matches, my choice but I pay for the whole package just for that little part. They offered £20 compensation. I said I'd prefer to watch the recordings and that they spanned 5 months. they offered £50 compensation, I think that is the cost of the package for 5 months. As I was never going to get to watch the programs I agreed. I'd still prefer to watch Air Crash Investigation then have the money.

Are you saying, you used to have a package with BT, but now have a different package? Do Liverpool not have a TV channel in the same way that Man U. Chelsea etc have? Perhaps subscribing to that if they do? If so, it is unfair (in my opinion) to 'penalise' (by accepting their compensation) BT because you are not interested in the majority of the package that you signed up for and did not use it within the terms you agreed to.

I would be keen to have Sky Sports F1, but I have no interest in any of their Sports packages, nor am I interested in paying £18 a month on top of that, so I choose not to have it. I can however somehow subscribe to F1 directly via Chase Media's own service - again I chose not to, as it is not cheap and I do not always have the time to watch it and therefore it would not represent value for money. There are other options available to me, but I am not that invested to investigate them.

Now to solve the second problem, unable to watch what I'm paying for via freeview box. BT offered compensation for this but I turned it down, BT had provided me with additional free internet access for 3 months so I was able to watch BT sport at my previous address on my laptop so I was able to watch what I was paying for.

Assuming you have a BT Sport package as part of your internet service, perhaps your laptop has a HDMI or another socket for an external screen/monitor, using this, you should be able to watch it on your TV (most TVs over the past 10 years will have the socket to allow this, but the laptop may not, although most do now).

Get a call from TMC? it seems back in December when the house move order was placed they messed it up and the chap had spent hours yesterday fixing it.
Thank goodness I did not turn the Freeview box on 5 minutes before a Liverpool match.

Important lesson learnt about subscription TV.
I see National Geographic are again broadcasting Air Crash Investigation via subscription but it cannot be recorded.


FWIW, I am not aware that any Freeview channels have a time limit on when I watch a recording.

You are still bound by copyright laws. Freeview though is a different system of service, 'Free to View', recording will be determined via the hardware you have. You can record such items, but the as you do not subscribe to any of them, you are not bound by any of their terms of service outside of the law. If you read the manual that comes with any recording device eg a hard drive box with the ability to record broadcast material, there will be some kind of disclaimer regarding recording and copyright, and of the laws of the territory you reside - even VHS recorders had these disclaimers. IE you are bound by the copyright laws of the country and worldwide rights owners.

But if you look at some catch up services, (BBC Iplayer is a good example or Chanel 5's TV series) you will see 'available until xx/xx/xxxx' This will been determined by the terms whatever agreement they had with the TV show/film distributors

Although it seems I have gotten to the bottom of the issue I have not got the result I wanted.

The resolution would be to purchase DVD's from the distributors or copyright owners. Air Crash Confidential (I believe Concorde was episode 7) or even perhaps via HERE

thank you clf for explaining at the outset what the problem was, you were right.

macafee2

The overall issue from what I have read is that the packages supplied do not suit your tastes or needs specifically. The broadcasters have to supply packages to suit a wide range of tastes. For me personally, it would be even harder for them lol, most service providers could not satisfy my demands. I would be random in my tastes and moods. Perhaps I was not 'in the mood' to watch F1 right now, but wanted to watch something that was on Sky Atlantic instead. So would have to have all the channels - my father has this, paying a ridiculous amount monthly to have access to what he wants when he wants it, even though he watches mainly terrestrial TV channels! (he is not rich, but he worked hard, in BT incidentally, for his retirement - it is not good value in my opinion, but it is his money, he earned it, and it makes him happy).

What limited understanding I have of tv packages, I would suggest perhaps a NOW TV monthly pass/device (or similar). Ultimately more expensive, but can be obtained and cancelled on a relatively simple monthly ad hoc basis. You cannot record directly as I understand, but you would be able to download a NOW TV app to the YouView box and watch it using it.

It may even be worthwhile looking into an IPTV type service using a smart TV, and link it up using an external hard drive via USB.

[clf]

Another option would be

https://itunes.apple.com/au/tv-seaso...4/id1137842613

Ultimately it comes down to perception of the service provided and your rights to copy.

BT Netflix, Sky et al are bound by their supplier/distributor (the program and TV show makers, National Geographic, Paramount etc).

You are bound by your supplier (the service provider, BT Sky etc)

Both the program makers and service providers are there to make money. For you to obtain your requirements, you would need to buy the shows in whatever format is provided by the makers (DVD, VHS etc.). However, even then, you are still bound by terms and conditions (under law). For instance, you cannot make copies to distribute or loan to others (you can make a singular back up copy of the original item you purchased in the event of damage, I believe if you physically lost the disc, you are actually required to dispose of the copy and purchase another!).