London Emissions Zone 2021

[MSS]

Originally Posted by bl52krz

Everyone seems to be missing the point. It’s all bullshine.


................Wish I could get a chance to have an intelligent conversation about this so called man made global warning.

Well, you have the floor so go for it.

As a minimum, you will have the satisfaction of having validated that your disappointment with the rest of us was fully justified!

[Saga Lout]

If you take a step back and look at the big picture it changes things. In the past we had roads, they were everywhere, through towns, cities, villages and then we got motorways to help the transport of the country get about, roads were the key to moving around fairly freely. In recent years and especially in cities, roads have been blocked off, made one way, speed humps, bus lanes that were a real road for all vehicles and now just for mostly empty buses on any given day. If traffic flows without hindrance there is less pollution, every single measure taken to slow traffic or to force it onto smaller roads creates pollution. No-one seems to mind the many 40+ years old aircraft dumping unburnt kerosene over most major cities, think of lock down and clear blue skies, a lot of these old planes are responsible for bad summers, take a look at the sky on a summers day and watch as the vapour trails merge together during the course of the day, the sun can't burn it away, next time you fly just have a look through the windows and see the lingering trails and only gravity slowly brings that pollution down to earth where it's recorded and the poor old motorist takes the blame. It's time to unblock the roads and ban old aircraft from the skies, take out speed bumps, let the roads do what they were put in place for, and that's not just to make money for local government.

[Lancpudn]

Originally Posted by Saga Lout

If you take a step back and look at the big picture it changes things. In the past we had roads, they were everywhere, through towns, cities, villages and then we got motorways to help the transport of the country get about, roads were the key to moving around fairly freely. In recent years and especially in cities, roads have been blocked off, made one way, speed humps, bus lanes that were a real road for all vehicles and now just for mostly empty buses on any given day. If traffic flows without hindrance there is less pollution, every single measure taken to slow traffic or to force it onto smaller roads creates pollution. No-one seems to mind the many 40+ years old aircraft dumping unburnt kerosene over most major cities, think of lock down and clear blue skies, a lot of these old planes are responsible for bad summers, take a look at the sky on a summers day and watch as the vapour trails merge together during the course of the day, the sun can't burn it away, next time you fly just have a look through the windows and see the lingering trails and only gravity slowly brings that pollution down to earth where it's recorded and the poor old motorist takes the blame. It's time to unblock the roads and ban old aircraft from the skies, take out speed bumps, let the roads do what they were put in place for, and that's not just to make money for local government.

Aviation is about to come under the cosh with a kerosene carbon tax shortly.


"Aviation’s treatment “is in contrast to ordinary road users, meaning that any driver that has ever filled up their car with petrol has paid more fuel duty than British Airways, Ryanair and Easyjet combined have ever paid on their flights,” they write in a letter to the Treasury".
"The European Commission has proposed that taxes should be applied to all intra-EU flights, at a rate of €0.38/litre. The groups say the UK should not only match this proposal, but should consider going further. Failure to at least match the proposals risks increasing greenhouse gas emissions through tankering." https://www.transportenvironment.org...than-airlines/

[MSS]

Originally Posted by Saga Lout

If you take a step back and look at the big picture it changes things. In the past we had roads, they were everywhere, through towns, cities, villages and then we got motorways to help the transport of the country get about, roads were the key to moving around fairly freely. In recent years and especially in cities, roads have been blocked off, made one way, speed humps, bus lanes that were a real road for all vehicles and now just for mostly empty buses on any given day. If traffic flows without hindrance there is less pollution, every single measure taken to slow traffic or to force it onto smaller roads creates pollution. No-one seems to mind the many 40+ years old aircraft dumping unburnt kerosene over most major cities, think of lock down and clear blue skies, a lot of these old planes are responsible for bad summers, take a look at the sky on a summers day and watch as the vapour trails merge together during the course of the day, the sun can't burn it away, next time you fly just have a look through the windows and see the lingering trails and only gravity slowly brings that pollution down to earth where it's recorded and the poor old motorist takes the blame. It's time to unblock the roads and ban old aircraft from the skies, take out speed bumps, let the roads do what they were put in place for, and that's not just to make money for local government.

A couple of points if I may.

1. Pollution by aircraft is considered a major issue by 'anti-pollution campaigners' and has been for many years. Often, the same people who consider it an absolute necessity to drive into cities also take the same view on their cheap summer holiday.

2. The primary cause of traffic congestion is the number of cars on the road multiplied by the number of miles traveled by each car vs the capacity of the road network.

I am not a fan of all traffic control measures, but we need to keep things in perspective.

[Saga Lout]

Originally Posted by MSS

A couple of points if I may.

1. Pollution by aircraft is considered a major issue by 'anti-pollution campaigners' and has been for many years. Often, the same people who consider it an absolute necessity to drive into cities also take the same view on their cheap summer holiday.

2. The primary cause of traffic congestion is the number of cars on the road multiplied by the number of miles traveled by each car vs the capacity of the road network.

I am not a fan of all traffic control measures, but we need to keep things in perspective.

I take my holidays like all others but, I never ask to be flown on an old polluting aircraft, especially when the same airline has new ones that cost the same ticket price.

There are issues with vehicles of course but there's no proactive policing anymore and, the highways agency seem to spend their days on the motorways playing at being plastic police officers. I'll set a small task for anyone, have a look around you when driving and see how many smoking heaps you can see, vehicles that are obviously skirting the MOT in some way, be it a bus, truck or car you'll see many and no-one is doing anything to stop these wrecks.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Saga Lout

It's time to unblock the roads and ban old aircraft from the skies ...

Two interesting points there Michael, thank you.

Unblocking the roads
I am lucky enough to qualify for free public transport within Greater London where I live. I find myself using the buses and trains much more than I used to, provided that the timetable is realistic and I don't have to carry bulky goods. So I wonder whether this could be a solution if this was extended to everyone in our major cities?

Ban old aircraft
Sorry Michael, that would be a great shame. First of all, I'm not aware that there is a link between the age of an aircraft and its capacity to deposit unburnt fuel into the skies. Secondly, and most importantly, everyone should have the opportunity to see a Spitfire performing aerobatics and a Lancaster on a low altitude fly-past. Both should be part of the secondary school syllabus!

Simon

[genpk]

No matter which way you cut the bread things will and have to change.
Im all for cutting pollution but its when people who might have the best intentions in the world start jumping up and down demanding changes that affect people lives, incomes and their well being but cant or dont have a plan thats viable or the technology to replace what currently exists.
You get alot of “we have to do somthing right now” but when you ask how we are going to get there, heat peoples home affordably or affordably drive to work, or keep employed , you get this blank look.
This transition to a more sustainable future is really good if we know what were going to have to replace it with.
At the moment Govts all over the world are jumping at shadows.
Only way to achieve a sustainable future is to reduce consumption which is totally at odds with growth which most economies in the world use as a bench mark of a nations health.

[Saga Lout]

Originally Posted by SD1too

Two interesting points there Michael, thank you.

Unblocking the roads
I am lucky enough to qualify for free public transport within Greater London where I live. I find myself using the buses and trains much more than I used to, provided that the timetable is realistic and I don't have to carry bulky goods. So I wonder whether this could be a solution if this was extended to everyone in our major cities?

Ban old aircraft
Sorry Michael, that would be a great shame. First of all, I'm not aware that there is a link between the age of an aircraft and its capacity to deposit unburnt fuel into the skies. Secondly, and most importantly, everyone should have the opportunity to see a Spitfire performing aerobatics and a Lancaster on a low altitude fly-past. Both should be part of the secondary school syllabus!

Simon

I don't mean petrol engined aircraft that form part of history as we know it, I mean old jet engined passenger planes that have no place in the skies other than profit for those running them. There are clean burning aircraft that don't belch trails leaden with unburned kerosene, it should be made law that the old aircraft face the same restrictions as the transport on the ground.

As for traffic, when did any council or transport authority improve a road for the good of the motorist, they all seem to be hacking roads up for minority groups to use and causing more congestion in the process, that's not addressing anything, it just clogs up towns and cities to a point where they blame the motorist and introduce a congestion charge `to deal with the problem` It's just the same with flooding, it's not extreme weather, it's a lack of ability to get water into the sea where it flows to. When did you last hear of a new river or watercourse being dug, or the replacement of the Roman drains that still serve parts of the UK. Common sense will solve all issues but money wins every argument where a local authority is concerned.

[SCP440]

A few old jets or even classic cars doing a few thousand miles a year are not the problem, the volume users are causing the problem, 15k jets in the air at any one time in normal times burning 10s of 1000's of litres a minute and millions of cars with one person in sitting in traffic for hours a day.

Air travel is far to cheap, if it cost 5 or 10 times what it does how many people would use it and yes we all love a holiday in another country the day after we finish work for a week but this is crazy. Also sitting in traffic burning millions of litres doing little more than keeping the heater on is madness. Most cars use at least 3 litres an hour idling.

If the majority of vehicles used for commuting around the world were electric, if all air travel was restricted to 2 flights per person annually this could be enough to start making a difference. Yes there are lots of other causes but it has to start somewhere.

[MSS]

Originally Posted by SCP440

A few old jets or even classic cars doing a few thousand miles a year are not the problem, the volume users are causing the problem, 15k jets in the air at any one time in normal times burning 10s of 1000's of litres a minute and millions of cars with one person in sitting in traffic for hours a day.

Air travel is far to cheap, if it cost 5 or 10 times what it does how many people would use it and yes we all love a holiday in another country the day after we finish work for a week but this is crazy. Also sitting in traffic burning millions of litres doing little more than keeping the heater on is madness. Most cars use at least 3 litres an hour idling.

If the majority of vehicles used for commuting around the world were electric, if all air travel was restricted to 2 flights per person annually this could be enough to start making a difference. Yes there are lots of other causes but it has to start somewhere.

Thank you. We think alike. It is an issue of mass use by the masses and the solution requires us all to be sympathetic to the environment in our everyday lives.