Where do I stand?

CMOORESY · 1st May 2017, 09:39

The clutch went on our diesel 75 tourer in Feb 2013 after 114000 miles.
Had a full new set-up (DMF, slave, master clutch, gearbox oil) and some other suspension bits (strut tops etc) the bill was a little over £1200 - ouch.
The entire system was LUK.
In December 2016 after 30,000 miles the system started to loose fluid. After topping up numerous times and getting the master changed for a metal TZAU unit the fluid loss continued - slave.
Got the local garage to do the job again (the new set-up had lasted just over 30,000 miles or 3.5 years)
This is were I would appreciate some advice -
I obtained a MG Rover X-Part metal slave from e-carparts, Sandy, Beds.
and supplied it to the garage to fit along with asking then to put in a new Borg and Beck clutch kit (OE supplier to Rover I'm told). This was in January 2017.
3 months later the clutch is making a loud whirring noise when the pedal is depressed. Bearing / slave failing I guess.

Now the total job again cost me nearly £700.

Not had the opportunity to speak with the garage yet due to bank holiday but, Where do I stand?

Obviously I'm not going to be sending another £600 to £700 on having the job done again.

The way I look at it is - the clutch has failed after 3 months. regardless of who obtained the slave cylinder. so it should be rectified FOC.

The only fly in the ointment that I can think of is that I obtained the slave cylinder. But I could have easily instructed the garage to obtain an fit a metal X-Part slave.

Any experience of a situation like this from a consumer law point of view?

As I say, I have not spoken to the garage yet and all may be well, but just trying to get an angle on it beforehand.

EastPete · 1st May 2017, 09:51

Chris

How many miles have you done since the new metal slave and B&B clutch was fitted in January ?

I fitted the same set-up to my car in January, and all is well after about 1200 miles.

The whirring when the pedal is depressed sounds like a slave/release bearing issue. It could be down in inadequate cleaning/lubrication when the new metal slave was fitted. With the metal slave, it is important that the guide tube the slave sits on is in good condition, clean, and lubricated with moly grease at the time of fitting. The input shaft splines should also be cleaned and greased (together with the face of the release bearing) - this should ensure smooth, quiet clutch.

You should probably go back to the garage and explain the problem - they should really remove the gearbox, check the condition of the clutch pressure/driven plates, then fit a new metal slave taking the precautions I suggest.
You supplied them with a genuine part, so they should not question the quality of the part supplied - the issue is probably with the fitting technique.

Pete

CMOORESY · 1st May 2017, 11:02

Thanks Pete,
Less than a 1,000.
As you say. I concluded that it was possibly the fitting technique but it could be a defective part.
I have emailed e-car parts to see where I stand with them.

The frustration comes from the fact that I did all the research, bought what I thought was the best parts available for the job and here I am again. Back with a knackered clutch having spent over £2,000 on clutch parts and labour in the past 4 years to still potentially be faced with another bill!

MSS · 1st May 2017, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMOORESY

.........

Obviously I'm not going to be sending another £600 to £700 on having the job done again.

The way I look at it is - the clutch has failed after 3 months. regardless of who obtained the slave cylinder. so it should be rectified FOC.

....

I'm afraid therein lies the problem associated with supplying parts to a garage or another to fit.

You need to be structured and clinical in your thought processes in order to avoid going down a rabbit hole.

The garage supplied and fitted a clutch - you are not claiming that there is anything wrong with the clutch components they supplied and fitted.

You supplied the slave which appears to have developed a fault (based on your description and conclusion). As far as your contract with the fitting garage is concerned, they provided a fitting service and at the moment you are not claiming that the service they provided was in any way at fault.

The supplier of the slave will no doubt provide a replacement slave if the original is found to be defective upon inspection.

You will need to demonstrate that the fitting service in relation to the slave was below standard in order to have any claim on the garage that fitted the slave and clutch.

The fitting of a new slave (supplied by you) should cost around £250 with one of the traders.

RPWC · 1st May 2017, 11:52

The whirring noise will be the bearing worn out, I had this on my first 75 after 6 months . I could have claimed under the warranty, but I didn't trust the original repairer to touch the car again, after the bull s story he came out with afterwards.

cb750chris · 1st May 2017, 11:52

Hi Chris,
I don't envy you in this position. You may have some problems with this.

If the garage has not fitted the parts properly, then it is the garage who should be footing the bill. However if it is the parts that are defective then the garage would be well within their rights to charge labour for rectifying, but normally most parts place will limit the warranty to replacement of the defective parts (not the costs of fitting, normally listed in the t&c page).
If the garage supplies the parts, then they are liable for making good.
This is the reason I would not normally suggest supplying parts to a garage as both garage and parts supplier are going to blame each other, with you left with no car or a (potentially) big bill to pay until things are resolved. Remember it's not fair for the 'innocent' pay to be out of pocket, but both sides will try and convince you the other party is the cause of the problem. Leaving you to try and get a resolution and argue the case for who is at fault.

Chris

marinabrian · 1st May 2017, 12:19

Sticky one this I'd say, any customer supplying their own parts should be aware the contract with the garage that fits those parts is limited to the labour aspect only.

The only glimmer of hope would be to either speak to the garage and hope as a goodwill gesture they rectify the problem FOC (unlikely), or pay another garage to do the job again writing a report on the cause of failure and if failure is found to be as a result of incorrect fitting then proceed from there.

It is very important that the fitting of clutch parts is done with care and without shortcuts, I have in the boot of my car a slave cylinder of the same type, wrecked along with the clutch friction plate and pressure plate due to incorrect and ham fisted fitting.

Brian

CMOORESY · 1st May 2017, 12:20

Yep,
This is my conclusion.

Yes. I did provide the part. But, I offered to obtain it on behalf of the garage as after some research and the premature failure of the LUK item I didn't want to find myself in the same position once again.

I got the part so they wouldn't have to.

I could have quite easily said - I want the latest x-part slave fitting, you sort out the part.

If this was a second hand part or some cheap rubbish from China that I was insisting on to save money, then yes, its me that liable but this was a premium part obtained on behalf of the garage.

All may be well. I'm just getting an angle on it before I call tomorrow.

Like-wise I have a Karmann Ghia that they occasionally do some work on when I haven't got the facilities or am to lazy etc. This involved me obtaining the parts from VW Heritage etc because they cant be supplied by local factors. They are the best available parts. Nothing would be any different if the garage sourced them other than they would have to phone around / trawl the internet.

We'll see.

MSS · 1st May 2017, 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMOORESY

Yep,
This is my conclusion.

Yes. I did provide the part. But, I offered to obtain it on behalf of the garage as after some research and the premature failure of the LUK item I didn't want to find myself in the same position once again.

I got the part so they wouldn't have to.

You now appear to be saying that you were acting as the garage's agent in securing the slave for them. Did you pay the slave supplier using the garage's chequebook?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMOORESY

I could have quite easily said - I want the latest x-part slave fitting, you sort out the part.

But that is not what you did!

The difference is that had the garage purchased this particular part (which they may have refused to do), they would have made a profit on it's onward sale to you. That is a different business and risk ownership model to the one which actually occurred.

If I was in your shoes, I would seek to draw on the garage's goodwill by making them recognise that you have suffered a loss. This may work or it may not. I really don't believe that you will get anywhere by using the sort of argument/positionin that you have used above.

p.s. I am not being argumentative but trying to help you see the wood from the trees.

CMOORESY · 1st May 2017, 13:13

[QUOTE=mss;2485379]You now appear to be saying that you were acting as the garage's agent in securing the slave for them. Did you pay the slave supplier using the garage's chequebook?

Of course not!
Why would that ever be the case?

I'm not going to go in all guns blazing.
The good will route is the first port of call, but for £300-£400 I'll pursue all of options.

Cheers,
Chris.

1st May 2017, 09:39	#1
CMOORESY Avid contributor MG ZT Auto and 75 Tourer Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Nantwich Posts: 182 Thanks: 8 Thanked 52 Times in 20 Posts	Where do I stand? The clutch went on our diesel 75 tourer in Feb 2013 after 114000 miles. Had a full new set-up (DMF, slave, master clutch, gearbox oil) and some other suspension bits (strut tops etc) the bill was a little over £1200 - ouch. The entire system was LUK. In December 2016 after 30,000 miles the system started to loose fluid. After topping up numerous times and getting the master changed for a metal TZAU unit the fluid loss continued - slave. Got the local garage to do the job again (the new set-up had lasted just over 30,000 miles or 3.5 years) This is were I would appreciate some advice - I obtained a MG Rover X-Part metal slave from e-carparts, Sandy, Beds. and supplied it to the garage to fit along with asking then to put in a new Borg and Beck clutch kit (OE supplier to Rover I'm told). This was in January 2017. 3 months later the clutch is making a loud whirring noise when the pedal is depressed. Bearing / slave failing I guess. Now the total job again cost me nearly £700. Not had the opportunity to speak with the garage yet due to bank holiday but, Where do I stand? Obviously I'm not going to be sending another £600 to £700 on having the job done again. The way I look at it is - the clutch has failed after 3 months. regardless of who obtained the slave cylinder. so it should be rectified FOC. The only fly in the ointment that I can think of is that I obtained the slave cylinder. But I could have easily instructed the garage to obtain an fit a metal X-Part slave. Any experience of a situation like this from a consumer law point of view? As I say, I have not spoken to the garage yet and all may be well, but just trying to get an angle on it beforehand.

1st May 2017, 09:51	#2
EastPete Posted a thing or two Rover 75 CDTi Classic saloon, MGB GT, Skoda Yeti Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ramsey, Cambs Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 626 Thanked 635 Times in 430 Posts	Chris How many miles have you done since the new metal slave and B&B clutch was fitted in January ? I fitted the same set-up to my car in January, and all is well after about 1200 miles. The whirring when the pedal is depressed sounds like a slave/release bearing issue. It could be down in inadequate cleaning/lubrication when the new metal slave was fitted. With the metal slave, it is important that the guide tube the slave sits on is in good condition, clean, and lubricated with moly grease at the time of fitting. The input shaft splines should also be cleaned and greased (together with the face of the release bearing) - this should ensure smooth, quiet clutch. You should probably go back to the garage and explain the problem - they should really remove the gearbox, check the condition of the clutch pressure/driven plates, then fit a new metal slave taking the precautions I suggest. You supplied them with a genuine part, so they should not question the quality of the part supplied - the issue is probably with the fitting technique. Pete Last edited by EastPete; 1st May 2017 at 09:52.. Reason: Edit

1st May 2017, 11:52	#5
RPWC This is my second home 75 model car Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne Posts: 20,177 Thanks: 4,008 Thanked 5,083 Times in 3,114 Posts	The whirring noise will be the bearing worn out, I had this on my first 75 after 6 months . I could have claimed under the warranty, but I didn't trust the original repairer to touch the car again, after the bull s story he came out with afterwards. __________________ Cheers. Rich…

1st May 2017, 11:52	#6
cb750chris Trader Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Portsmouth Posts: 849 Thanks: 201 Thanked 292 Times in 200 Posts	Hi Chris, I don't envy you in this position. You may have some problems with this. If the garage has not fitted the parts properly, then it is the garage who should be footing the bill. However if it is the parts that are defective then the garage would be well within their rights to charge labour for rectifying, but normally most parts place will limit the warranty to replacement of the defective parts (not the costs of fitting, normally listed in the t&c page). If the garage supplies the parts, then they are liable for making good. This is the reason I would not normally suggest supplying parts to a garage as both garage and parts supplier are going to blame each other, with you left with no car or a (potentially) big bill to pay until things are resolved. Remember it's not fair for the 'innocent' pay to be out of pocket, but both sides will try and convince you the other party is the cause of the problem. Leaving you to try and get a resolution and argue the case for who is at fault. Chris __________________ Now offering T4 services in the Fareham area Replacement keys programmed / supplied / cut Diesel 135 upgrade available IPK virginisation and T4 matching available Sorry, due to a big change in home circumstances, I am unable to do any large jobs at present, but can still offer evening time diagnostics. Last edited by cb750chris; 1st May 2017 at 11:54..

1st May 2017, 11:02	#3
CMOORESY Avid contributor MG ZT Auto and 75 Tourer Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Nantwich Posts: 182 Thanks: 8 Thanked 52 Times in 20 Posts	Thanks Pete, Less than a 1,000. As you say. I concluded that it was possibly the fitting technique but it could be a defective part. I have emailed e-car parts to see where I stand with them. The frustration comes from the fact that I did all the research, bought what I thought was the best parts available for the job and here I am again. Back with a knackered clutch having spent over £2,000 on clutch parts and labour in the past 4 years to still potentially be faced with another bill!

1st May 2017, 12:19	#7
marinabrian MG ZT Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 20,151 Thanks: 3,565 Thanked 10,837 Times in 5,718 Posts	Sticky one this I'd say, any customer supplying their own parts should be aware the contract with the garage that fits those parts is limited to the labour aspect only. The only glimmer of hope would be to either speak to the garage and hope as a goodwill gesture they rectify the problem FOC (unlikely), or pay another garage to do the job again writing a report on the cause of failure and if failure is found to be as a result of incorrect fitting then proceed from there. It is very important that the fitting of clutch parts is done with care and without shortcuts, I have in the boot of my car a slave cylinder of the same type, wrecked along with the clutch friction plate and pressure plate due to incorrect and ham fisted fitting. Brian

1st May 2017, 12:20	#8
CMOORESY Avid contributor MG ZT Auto and 75 Tourer Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Nantwich Posts: 182 Thanks: 8 Thanked 52 Times in 20 Posts	Yep, This is my conclusion. Yes. I did provide the part. But, I offered to obtain it on behalf of the garage as after some research and the premature failure of the LUK item I didn't want to find myself in the same position once again. I got the part so they wouldn't have to. I could have quite easily said - I want the latest x-part slave fitting, you sort out the part. If this was a second hand part or some cheap rubbish from China that I was insisting on to save money, then yes, its me that liable but this was a premium part obtained on behalf of the garage. All may be well. I'm just getting an angle on it before I call tomorrow. Like-wise I have a Karmann Ghia that they occasionally do some work on when I haven't got the facilities or am to lazy etc. This involved me obtaining the parts from VW Heritage etc because they cant be supplied by local factors. They are the best available parts. Nothing would be any different if the garage sourced them other than they would have to phone around / trawl the internet. We'll see.

1st May 2017, 13:13	#10
CMOORESY Avid contributor MG ZT Auto and 75 Tourer Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: Nantwich Posts: 182 Thanks: 8 Thanked 52 Times in 20 Posts	[QUOTE=mss;2485379]You now appear to be saying that you were acting as the garage's agent in securing the slave for them. Did you pay the slave supplier using the garage's chequebook? Of course not! Why would that ever be the case? I'm not going to go in all guns blazing. The good will route is the first port of call, but for £300-£400 I'll pursue all of options. Cheers, Chris.