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Old 6th December 2018, 22:23   #31
HarryM1BYT
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Quote:
Originally Posted by COLVERT View Post
Russ. Could you tell me if the anti-trap on the windows works through a current sensing device ??

An abrupt stop of a window would see a sudden surge in current as the electrical path becomes almost a dead short.


I like the way all the windows on my wife's Citroen can be closed from in the house if it starts to rain outside and I'm in my jammies.--

The driver's door window (only this window) is fitted with a rubber strip along the top and front edge. Compression of the strip is the sensing device. I would assume that compression alters its conductivity.
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Old 7th December 2018, 00:34   #32
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As Harry says above the Anti trap is fitted to the drivers side window only.
The problem with enabling the others with TOAF is that that safety feature isn't there on the other windows and could potentially cause injury.
Those window motors do produce enough power to break fingers or even chop them off especially if it were a child or an elderly person.

I found out this the hard way because I was fitting a drivers door catch on a car with lazy lock and vent enabled.
The window opened all the way down before I could get my fingers out of the way and ended up breaking two of them.
Whenever I change a drivers door catch now I make sure the connector to the window motor is unplugged

Russ
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Old 7th December 2018, 14:17   #33
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Just a quick question for Russ/Brian

Is it definitely the missing ambient air temperature signal thatinhibits the HRW?

Given the behavior in the car, (HRW disables a short time after you stall the engine) would the more likely data between ECU and HEVAC unit be the engine RPM? (so HRW does not operate if engine is turned stopped)? Obviously the same symptom in the even of a failed ECU, but seems to fit closer to observed behaviour with a working ECU.
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Old 7th December 2018, 18:34   #34
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Originally Posted by cb750chris View Post
Is it definitely the missing ambient air temperature signal that inhibits the HRW?
... would the more likely data between ECU and HEVAC unit be the engine RPM?
That's a very good question Chris.

RAVE does say that the ATC [HEVAC] ECU receives "vehicle speed" data from the IPK and "main" K-bus. That seems to be misleading Brian because the IPK sends "Engine speed/road speed" to the HEVAC & BCU on the K-bus (Body Electrics Workbook 1999 page 60) which it gets from the ECM on the CAN bus. "Ignition switch status" is also sent by the IPK on the K-bus to all ECUs.

I have also been puzzling over this part of Brian's explanation:
Quote:
Originally Posted by marinabrian View Post
... and the ambient temperature signal, previously transmitted from the ECM on the CANBUS ...
As the IPK receives the ambient temperature signal directly from the sensor (C0233-4) why would it need it again on the CAN bus?
Significantly, RAVE says that the ATC ECU receives "Ambient temperature from the ambient temperature sensor in the bumper via a hard wired connection to the instrument pack and the main K bus".
Any comments on that Brian?

The second thing that is interesting about Brian's account is this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by marinabrian View Post
In the case of the CANBUS, the KMB decodes the data packet, and transmits data on the lower speed K-bus to whichever ECU is prioritised first, and the ambient temperature signal, previously transmitted from the ECM on the CANBUS, is sent to the HEVAC ECU transmitted on the K-Bus, and as there is not a valid signal transmitted forward from the HEVAC ECU onward to the BCU on the K-Bus, heated rear window operation is inhibited.
Brian seems to be saying that the K bus route of the exterior air temperature data is:
IPK > HEVAC [ATC] ECU > BCU.
The wiring diagram and RAVE explain that the ATC [HEVAC] ECU uses a special K-bus line called "K-bus 2" for communication with the BCU. The control signals listed are:
1. Fresh/recirculated air intake flap servo motor.
2. Air conditioning compressor.
3. Diagnostics and ...
4. HRW!

It would appear that the purpose of this is when defrost mode is selected and the ATC ECU instructs the BCU to activate the HRW.

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Last edited by SD1too; 7th December 2018 at 19:21..
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Old 7th December 2018, 19:36   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
That's a very good question Chris.

RAVE does say that the ATC [HEVAC] ECU receives "vehicle speed" data from the IPK and "main" K-bus. That seems to be misleading Brian because the IPK sends "Engine speed/road speed" to the HEVAC & BCU on the K-bus (Body Electrics Workbook 1999 page 60) which it gets from the ECM on the CAN bus. "Ignition switch status" is also sent by the IPK on the K-bus to all ECUs.

I have also been puzzling over this part of Brian's explanation:

As the IPK receives the ambient temperature signal directly from the sensor (C0233-4) why would it need it again on the CAN bus?
Significantly, RAVE says that the ATC ECU receives "Ambient temperature from the ambient temperature sensor in the bumper via a hard wired connection to the instrument pack and the main K bus".
Any comments on that Brian?

The second thing that is interesting about Brian's account is this:

Brian seems to be saying that the K bus route of the exterior air temperature data is:
IPK > HEVAC [ATC] ECU > BCU.
The wiring diagram and RAVE explain that the ATC [HEVAC] ECU uses a special K-bus line called "K-bus 2" for communication with the BCU. The control signals listed are:
1. Fresh/recirculated air intake flap servo motor.
2. Air conditioning compressor.
3. Diagnostics and ...
4. HRW!

It would appear that the purpose of this is when defrost mode is selected and the ATC ECU instructs the BCU to activate the HRW.

Simon
There appears to be a little confusion between the outside ambient temperature sensor mounted on the bumper as used on all models for the display in the IPK, and the additional ambient temperature sensor as used only on diesel models, mounted on the PAS cooler pipework.

It is the data from the latter which is transmitted back to the IPK via the CANBUS from the ECM

Brian
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Old 7th December 2018, 22:17   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinabrian View Post
There appears to be a little confusion between the outside ambient temperature sensor mounted on the bumper as used on all models for the display in the IPK, and the additional ambient temperature sensor as used only on diesel models, mounted on the PAS cooler pipework.
It is the data from the latter which is transmitted back to the IPK via the CANBUS from the ECM
Well I think that's the closest we're going to get to an admission from you Brian that your reference to the CAN bus in respect of outside temperature data utilised by the HRW was, in fact, incorrect!

Now, you seem to have forgotten to respond to Chris' highly relevant question concerning engine speed:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb750chris View Post
Just a quick question for Russ/Brian
Is it definitely the missing ambient air temperature signal thatinhibits the HRW?
... would the more likely data between ECU and HEVAC unit be the engine RPM?
Would you care to impart your wisdom to us on that please?

Simon
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Old 7th December 2018, 22:44   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by marinabrian View Post
There appears to be a little confusion between the outside ambient temperature sensor mounted on the bumper as used on all models for the display in the IPK, and the additional ambient temperature sensor as used only on diesel models, mounted on the PAS cooler pipework.

It is the data from the latter which is transmitted back to the IPK via the CANBUS from the ECM

Brian
Thanks for explaining this Brian.
Yes i made the assumption it was the normal ambient air temperature sensor.
Goes to show how complex the data busses on the cars are.
Chris
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Old 8th December 2018, 01:45   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
Well I think that's the closest we're going to get to an admission from you Brian that your reference to the CAN bus in respect of outside temperature data utilised by the HRW was, in fact, incorrect!

Now, you seem to have forgotten to respond to Chris' highly relevant question concerning engine speed:

Would you care to impart your wisdom to us on that please?

Simon
Simon before you rest back and consider your next move with a smug smile, having read the 1999 Technicians Workbook, let me assure you that the ECM transmits the outside temperature data on the CANBUS in the case of the diesel models.

It is fed to VIA the IPK gateway to both the HEVAC ecu, along with the Webasto Thermotop ECU.

You appear to think also by quoting from obscure MGR text makes you seem all knowledgeable too, sadly not always, because in a lot of cases things that would have been believed impossible in to achieve in 1999, or indeed in 2018 are inherently possible, provided you have the relevant knowledge

One of those things was the fact once programmed it is impossible, even using T4 to reconfigure a diesel ECM to another car it was not originally configured too, and questions regarding both this and other things, such as the reasons behind why new model replacement DDE4 diesel ECM units produced by Bosch for Rover couldn't be programmed to the car, something neither Bosch or Omitec Instrumentation could provide an answer too.

The OP has provided a fault scenario, the reason for the fault has been explained along with the cure for the problem.

It has also been explained in depth, that the component that has failed on the PCB of the DDE4 is no longer available, that means that his original ECM CANNOT BE REPAIRED.

He has also been advised as to the easiest recourse to resolve the issue he has with his car, so in the interests of other people who don't feel the need to wear highly polished brown shoes along with strange coloured jeans, please stop trying to make me look as if I don't have the first idea about the interactions between the various electronic modules in the car.

Brian
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Old 8th December 2018, 08:55   #39
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Brian, could you clarify a few matters of imprecision please because, as you know, I am Mr. Logical. So let's look at Chris' last post if we may:
Quote:
Originally Posted by cb750chris View Post
Thanks for explaining this Brian.
Yes i made the assumption it was the normal ambient air temperature sensor.
So Brian, Chris was referring to this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by marinabrian View Post
... the outside ambient temperature sensor mounted on the bumper as used on all models for the display in the IPK ...
Are you saying that, on all models, this sensor is used only for the IPK display and not for conversion and transmission on the K-bus to the BCU?

Simon
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Old 8th December 2018, 10:19   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SD1too View Post
Brian, could you clarify a few matters of imprecision please because, as you know, I am Mr. Logical. So let's look at Chris' last post if we may:

So Brian, Chris was referring to this:

Are you saying that, on all models, this sensor is used only for the IPK display and not for conversion and transmission on the K-bus to the BCU?

Simon
All petrol models Simon there is one sensor and it is used to display the outside temperature on the IPK display.

On diesel models there are two sensors, one for use as in the petrol models, and the second is utilised by the ECM, and the data transmitted on the CANBUS to the multiplex in the KMB for onward transmission on the K-Bus to the HEVAC and Webasto Thermotop ECU.

I hope this clarifies the situation, and also the differences between the diesel and petrol models.

Brian
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