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Old 21st January 2018, 18:27   #21
SCP440
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Personally I have never seen a Gates timing belt snap and only a couple of fan belts but I have seen numerous Dayco belts give up.

I was given a Dayco timing belt to fit buy a customer to a Ford and I refused, they don't seem to look as good quality even when new. Yes they might be a few £'s cheaper but this is one item it is not worth trying to save on in my view.
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Old 21st January 2018, 18:34   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
Ha ha - I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree with it.


As to your specific points:

1. Why on earth did Rover go to the expense of floating cams and setting tools if they weren't to be used when changing belts?


If it was just a question of finding the initial setting at the factory they would have done that, set it as a standard for production engines, not used floating cams and saved money.

2. According to the chap who was involved with the design, the factory timing marks on the rear cams aren't accurate marks for the engine due to the fact that they were still fine tuning the valve timing for the optimum setting after the production tooling had been manufactured.

If you know where to look, this is mentioned in RAVE.

3. The factory set the floating cams to suit the front belt they fitted when the engine was built up. If you change the belt you should then set the engine up to the new belt just as they did in the factory to ensure any variations in belt tolerances don't affect the engine timing.

Whether anyone uses the tools or not is down to them. If you think near enough is good enough then fine, and in reality it will be, but my view is that the best way to ensure the timing spot on is to use the tools as recommended by the factory.
Why on earth did Rover do all the stupid things they did with the 75? Plastic thermostat houses, instruments that fail after a few years, petrol filters that unscrew themselves, springs that, -well- don't spring, the list goes on.
I have had a public discussion with Diesel 1956 (if that was his name) and he did not strike me as the person who had designed the system, in spite of his claims. He was evasive and did not bring any sound argument to bear in the discussion, he actually claimed he could not remember!. So I don't give much for his arguments.
The fact is simple. If you know the setting of the two sprockets on the rear on each side of the engine, then it is EXACTLY the same as timing a 1.8 engine, but in plural!. Safe mode, two opposing marks, and they must be maintained. Each side.
Not many in their right mind will claim that that method on the 1.8 is not accurate! Or??
The variations between belts is of no consequence, because they are so small as to be of no significance at all. I looked up the accuracy of these belts in my original discussion, and the variations is a fraction of a millimeter. Nobody with any sanity will claim that the 1.8 has to be set up for each new belt fitted! Why on earth would you suddenly expect that here??

Variation of the cam timing has an effect on power and torque, and there is not one "best" setting. The setting that Rover came up with for the 75 is the setting they felt best satisfied their requirements for that car. If you have a factory set engine, there is nothing that will throw that timing out, unless your belt jumps teeth. Nothing! The variation that can be achieved, should you decide to play around with the floating sprockets in front, could perhaps be useful as they planned to use the engine in all from 4x4 to sports cars.

Brian, I too have seen engines not timed correctly, that is not because the timing method is inaccurate, but because a lot of people are not very god at what they do. Such mistiming is not a fraction of a millimeter, but one or more teeth. That is caused by incompetence, bad luck or lack of care.



The OP has an engine set by the factory. If he maintains the setting with new belts, the setting will be exactly what they did at the factory. That is simple logic.
We have here a chance to see what the factory settings are, as the OP can take a picture of the marks of the four sprockets with the engine in safe mode.

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Old 21st January 2018, 22:55   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kaiser View Post
If you know the setting of the two sprockets on the rear on each side of the engine, then it is EXACTLY the same as timing a 1.8 engine, but in plural!. Safe mode, two opposing marks, and they must be maintained. Each side.
Not many in their right mind will claim that that method on the 1.8 is not accurate! Or??
Yes of course the theory of timing is exactly the same, but the KV6 front belt is far longer, and variations can have a cumulative effect, so what is an acceptable factory tolerance for the 1.8 belt may not be within the acceptable factory tolerance for the KV6.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 07:18   #24
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As we know, all pulleys are keyed except for the front camshaft pulleys. They float and shall be fixed in the correct position with the tools after the front belt is mounted. Is there any ways to check for correct timing without the tools?? Some kind of precision marks or lines on the rear camshaft sprockets would easily tell this when the crankshaft is locked in the "safe" position with the locking pin. Is there any??

Does anyone know if the engineering drawings for the tool is available somewhere?

I have basically performed my TB change according to Kaisers theory( https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...d.php?t=204919 ), but it would be nice to have the timing checked just to be sure. I feel that my KV6 should perform better than it does and I know the spanner monkeys have been in there before. Old tipex marks was found and I have documentation for TB replacement earlier in the cars life...
It seems that I have to get into there again as it seems the WP has given in, but it might be the thermostat also... will inspect closer....

Last edited by beinet1; 22nd January 2018 at 07:20..
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Old 22nd January 2018, 09:18   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
That is Kaiser's opinion on the timing tools, and he is more than welcome to give it.
Have to agree with this.
I've done several & always use the tools & use new sprocket bolts too.
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Old 22nd January 2018, 10:35   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beinet1 View Post
As we know, all pulleys are keyed except for the front camshaft pulleys. They float and shall be fixed in the correct position with the tools after the front belt is mounted. Is there any ways to check for correct timing without the tools?? Some kind of precision marks or lines on the rear camshaft sprockets would easily tell this when the crankshaft is locked in the "safe" position with the locking pin. Is there any??

Does anyone know if the engineering drawings for the tool is available somewhere?

I have basically performed my TB change according to Kaisers theory( https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...d.php?t=204919 ), but it would be nice to have the timing checked just to be sure. I feel that my KV6 should perform better than it does and I know the spanner monkeys have been in there before. Old tipex marks was found and I have documentation for TB replacement earlier in the cars life...
It seems that I have to get into there again as it seems the WP has given in, but it might be the thermostat also... will inspect closer....
Hi all,

I just have had a quick look at some old pictures and others found on the net. Both sprockets on the rear have notches which go in line with the key. The inlet sprocket also have a line through its center. I assume that when engine is put in "safe position", these notches shall line up through the center between the sprockets. Putting a steel ruler on the lines on the inlet sprocket and check if it mates up with the center of the exhaust sprocket can then give you an indication that the floating sprocket on the front are properly lined up or not. Does this make sense???
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:03   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beinet1 View Post
Hi all,

I just have had a quick look at some old pictures and others found on the net. Both sprockets on the rear have notches which go in line with the key. The inlet sprocket also have a line through its center. I assume that when engine is put in "safe position", these notches shall line up through the center between the sprockets. Putting a steel ruler on the lines on the inlet sprocket and check if it mates up with the center of the exhaust sprocket can then give you an indication that the floating sprocket on the front are properly lined up or not. Does this make sense???
Do the marks on the 1.8 sprockets make sense?
Of course they do!

Do these on the V6 make sense?.
Of course they don't!! They are just there to give you a false sense of security and to give people like me something to argue about!
Since they are locked unto the camshafts and can only go one way, they are not to be taken seriously, at all!! Rather go and get some tools, of which we have many variants to confuse the enemy!! Then take out the oil seals, break the lock on the floating front sprockets and force everything to align with whatever tool you set your fancy on. Throw away the bolts, buy new ones. Insert new oil seals and tighten the living daylight out of the bolts.
After suffering massive oil loss from loose camshaft seals and lumpy running, pat self on back and congratulate on a job done by the book.!

Back to the original posters case. He has a car that has the belts set from the factory. If his marks don't align, when he takes the covers off with the engine in safe mode, he can just make the exact same marks as seen here (but DON't use Tipex for Pete's sake!!), and by keeping those marks in line , after the new belt is fitted, he will be back to the exact timing given to the engine by the factory, provided there is not a mechanical problem, with a stripped belt, broken sprocket or jumped teeth.(all of which should be obvious!)

If you (anyone and no-one in particular) cannot see that, I would suggest you sit down and take you thinking hat on, because in that case you have not understood what is going on here.

I am still waiting for the penny to drop for at least some-one reading this!

Life can be so frustrating at times
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Old 22nd January 2018, 12:28   #28
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Kaiser, I will be waiting with you

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Old 22nd January 2018, 13:02   #29
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I have done this job 3 times now , once without the tools and twice with them . Both ways work
I simply like using the tools , perhaps because I like toys I do appreciate the floating sprockets when I tension the front belt ; no movement of the shafts . I also like using the tool in the front of the exhaust sprocket to turn it to line up the rear sprocket ; so easy
We will all have ways of doing things and choice is a nice feature in life . Calm down , everyone ; we are just doing things our preferred way
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Old 22nd January 2018, 18:23   #30
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I have basically performed my TB change according to Kaisers theory( https://the75andztclub.co.uk/forum/s...d.php?t=204919 )
Are you sure Einar? According to your link, you fabricated a tool to hold the front sprockets. I thought that "Kaiser's theory" is that no special tools whatsoever are required.

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