Water Leak Advice

[Jules]

Had to dig long and hard for this one Simon !

In situ shot of leakage from 9th Oct 2007
It clearly shows Herbie clips fitted correctly outer most.
Still leaked!!

2nd shot is more melty bits from an M47.
Simon
What else is melting these seals?
There's only water and OAT in this one and 100's of others we've changed.

Not scientific but hey we cured them for good with our non scientific methods .

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[T-Cut]

Originally Posted by Jules

2nd shot is more melty bits from an M47.

Statistially speaking, the blue o-ring is a silicone, which OAT - the early version anyway - will plasticise. I'm surprised it's a standard ring (?)

Ring Colours: https://www.globaloring.com/oring-colors/

Not proof, but interesting evidence.
I note that silicone hose outlets specifically advise against using OAT.

I'm pretty sure there will be o-ring rubbers that won't suffer 2-EHA/OAT problems and some that will. I doubt MGR would have used more resistant/expensive materials like Viton to help mitigate against it. In fact Xpart's recent switch to Viton inlet manifold seals (K16) suggests that they didn't.

Perhaps a few early years of 2-EHA/OAT in cars doing little annual mileage have survived through the OAT switchover (to sebacates/etc.) and continue even today problem-free? It would explain the apparent hit and miss situation. A bit like smoking and lung cancer.

TC

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Jules

9 times out of 10 you won't be able to remove either the elbow or the stat without the stub breaking off.

That may be your experience Jules but it isn't mine. As I said, breakage is the result of using the keyhole method and/or excessive and/or misapplied force.

The straight piece is less susceptible to going brittle.

What? How can one out of three components made from the same material and subject to the same temperature and antifreeze concentration possibly behave differently to the other two?
Face the facts Jules; the curved pipe and thermostat housing are breaking because of your removal technique.

Please stop misleading our members.

It is absolutely clear that it is you and Brian who are doing that!

You have only your own car (qty1) to base your theories and experiences on.

If I can remove the three parts without breakage on my one car, why can't you?
Why have the three parts on my single car never split?
It only takes one car and one person to prove that it can be done and that there must be another explanation.

These questions, to which you have no answers, suggest that you have got the diagnosis completely wrong Jules. I'm sorry.

Simon

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by T-Cut

... I've not read of any PRT housings suffering in a similar way, be they buff, grey or black. Yet they're all made from the same polymer ...
In fact OAT has become quite a variable beast where nobody but the manufacturers know exactly what's in there. Certainly not you and me. But whatever it is, it's no longer 2-EHA ...
The early versions forever made 'OAT' antifreeze a bad boy.

Thank you T-Cut for this refreshingly intelligent and interesting contribution.

I don't know why Jules and Brian are "thanking" you for it because the claims made in their posts are completely contrary to what you've said.

Simon

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Jules

Had to dig long and hard for this one Simon !
In situ shot of leakage from 9th Oct 2007
It clearly shows Herbie clips fitted correctly outer most.
Still leaked!

Thank you, I grant you that one.
We'll have to see what happens with mine.

2nd shot is more melty bits from an M47.

Thanks, but I'm not interested in the M47, only the KV6 and its 'O' rings don't disintegrate.

Simon

[Jules]

Wrong yet again Simon!


One example of success of 25% OAT is the 260 heater valve.
Not one we replaced failed again (including my own valve which was replaced in 2009)


Simon I've never claimed my work is scientific!
Are you counting your ONE case as scientific?

I and other engineers are simply "trend" spotters and I have proved to myself time and time again by my own methods and changes to procedure when sometimes the Rave manual is obviously wrong.

I don't see the same repeat failures in my customers cars so
THAT is all that matters to me regardless of whether it's scientific or not.

I could do without your constant public critisism on here of my methods from a DIYer who has only his own single 75 V6 to fiddle with.


You've criticised my Cooling Fan methods many times in the past unyet I have 1000's of satisfied customers who don't come back with a repeat fan failure.
THAT is all that matters to me.

If I had taken your advice and re- brushed the motors 95% of them would have bounced back within a year.
No other company offers a refurb service for these Siemens motors.
What does that tell you Simon?

It tells me it is not a viable task and hasn't been since the 1st 3 speed fan failure in 2001 !

[marinabrian]

Originally Posted by Jules

Wrong yet again Simon!


One example of success of 25% OAT is the 260 heater valve.
Not one we replaced failed again (including my own valve which was replaced in 2009)


Simon I've never claimed my work is scientific!
Are you counting your ONE case as scientific?

I and other engineers are simply "trend" spotters and I have proved to myself time and time again by my own methods and changes to procedure when sometimes the Rave manual is obviously wrong.

I don't see the same repeat failures in my customers cars so
THAT is all that matters to me regardless of whether it's scientific or not.

I could do without your constant public critisism on here of my methods from a DIYer who has only his own single 75 V6 to fiddle with.


You've criticised my Cooling Fan methods many times in the past unyet I have 1000's of satisfied customers who don't come back with a repeat fan failure.
THAT is all that matters to me.

If I had taken your advice and re- brushed the motors 95% of them would have bounced back within a year.
No other company offers a refurb service for these Siemens motors.
What does that tell you Simon?

It tells me it is not a viable task and hasn't been since the 1st 3 speed fan failure in 2001 !

Jules, you are wasting your breath I'm afraid, Simon simply refuses to acknowledge that if you remove a common denominator from a failure, especially one that you have encountered on multiple occasions and the failure does not reoccur, then you can safely conclude that the thing you have removed from the equation is the cause.

I asked him to provide the shape of his failed o rings, yet he has not done so, if his o rings had failed in a D shape, it would lend some credence to his theory of movement being the cause of failure, however I can safely say with experience based upon more than one or two occasions, that his o rings will have acquired an oval section, which pours cold water on his theory straight away, the case for compression set caused by incompatibility of the o ring material and the media it is sealing being a much more plausible cause.

Only last night a local member came to see me about a completely unrelated problem, and after removing the engine cover, there was not a leak to be seen around the thermostat, and the Herbie clip was not positioned in the way Simon advocates.

The owner of the car replaced the 'stat over a year ago, and his coolant level is perfect, and remains constant...........however the coolant is one of a silicate based corrosion inhibitor, and not organic acid based.

The fact about Simon is quite simple, he has demonstrated on multiple occasions to treat every member of the motor trade with disdain, in his eyes their only objective to make as much money as humanly possible in the shortest time possible.

He cannot relate to the fact that many members of the trade take great pride in their work, often going the extra mile to assist their customer, and carry out work to a greater standard than is expected.

This of course results in an earned reputation for quality workmanship, and quite rightly so, and who would wish to tarnish a hard won reputation by having to rectify jobs en masse, because corners have been cut, or substandard practice employed.

I fully endorse the ethos of a job well done, and often take much longer to complete a task than the book allows, simply because that is the way I've always operated, but charge the customer the book time.

There is always a vast gulf between what a diligent DIYer would consider as acceptable in terms of reuse and refurbishment of defective components, and what someone who has to warrant their workmanship, which is why when someone comes to me with a defective three speed fan when asked what I would do in their position.........I would always advice replacement with a two speed fan with uprated resistor, or a Revotec.

I have in the past refurbished a three speed fan on my own car with new carbon brushes, and it is fraught with difficulties for the novice, something Simon always forgets to mention

When it comes to a customer's car, I always treat them with the same sort of respect as I would my own, and would never suggest fitting of unnecessary components, or substandard components, and that is why they leave with a smile, and safe in the knowledge the job has been done right.

I always say this, "I either do the job right, or I don't do it at all", I will never fit customer supplied parts and warrant the job, and if someone is insistent that inferior parts be fitted, then I simply refuse to do the job.

Finally, just for Simon, I've attached a video from HCL demonstrating how to fit and remove Herbie clips...........see it really is possible to reuse them



Brian

[clf]

[QUOTE=SD1too;2653149]I cannot provide other evidence in the short term to support my theory that clips positioning is responsible, but that doesn’t mean that the theory is automatically invalid.

Your theory will never be invalid, however, your theory could be debated or disproved (even if only with anecdotal evidence - ie those with the experience explaining how or why your theory can be disproven. Unless you disbelieve that experience).



We must wait for the result of my practical trial.
NO! we mustn't, that is a very egotistical statement to make. As Jules has now stated (and what I have been trying to imply), you CANNOT claim others practical experience of these issues is unscientific, whilst claiming yours to be. This is why I do not believe it to be practical for you, or for that matter most people! Where is your control, what means are you using to test with to demonstrate the various uses and operations the thousands of Kv6 engines that are currently in use, to give an accurate representation and demonstration of your theory
What I do know is that the leakage affects only a minority of cars How? How do you know this? You know of a few (relatively speaking - I imagine from various threads on boards such as these). To balance that out however, on the whole, Jules, and Brian will normally only see these instances as the cars will be brought to them with some fault, or coolant service.
That fact alone Alan should make you question Jules’ claim that the plastic spontaneously cracks and Brian’s that OAT affects the ‘O’ rings. Neither trader has yet produced a credible explanation of these theories. What? Why are the explanations they have given any less credible than yours? To be honest, as I read it, theirs are more credible than yours as they have had considerably more experience of rectifying the issues than you have - by what I have now had to accept, your own admission (you have been asked and ignored numerous times to validate your claims with qualification - even experience would be adequate for that!)

Have they? Jules hasn’t provided any evidence of broken plastic parts in situ, only after removal. I’ve asked him about his pressure test and he hasn’t explained how and when he performs this or shown the splits he alleges it reveals before the parts were removed. I believe he has now, or does he need to provide some form of independent witness to verify it? As for an explanation of pressure testing etc, you are trying to muddy a valid argument, ignoring your own absence of detail. In saying all of that, why can you not accept their word for their experiences? - this is the reason I felt I had to speak on this thread. It looked to me that you were suggesting that both Brian and Jules didnt know what they were talking about! That is how it reads to me!

Brian has produced a photograph of one severely damaged ‘O’ ring from a diesel and nothing from a KV6. This discussion has bounced around from the brittleness of plastics, and the breakdown of the O ring materials due to chmical interference, so forgive me if I am wrong on this, but Brian was discussing the failures of the O ring, whilst Jules was discussing both plastic component failure AND the O ring failure. But the fact that they do not take photographic evidence of their findings, does NOT make their theories incorrect. Nor does it mean their experiences did not happen either!!!! This thread reads as though you doubt not only their theories, but also their experience!


Why are only a minority of KV6s affected then? Again, who says it is a minority? There are various other factors to consider - one potential example would be people scrapping a car because it keeps losing water, and when taken to a garage, they throw K-Seal into it, and it still leaks, so it gets scrapped.
You’re claiming a basic design error which would affect them all. I am claiming NOTHING! Especially NOT a design error. I was putting forward a potential theory to answer your dismissal of the heat/plastic problem of a Kv6 stat within the V, as opposed to the relatively cooler stat of a diesel (I know you are only interested in the Kv6, but let's not let a valid variable disprove your theory)
Also, if it’s temperature related, why don’t all four ‘O’ rings visibly leak with the same vigour and in the current hot weather why aren’t we seeing a surge in failures? Current hot weather - seriously? Am I understanding you correctly? You are trying to muddy the argument up, by comparing the ambient temperature inside the confines of two banks of petrol cylinders, and the ambient temperature surrounding the car! As for the other O rings, I have explained, I am not familiar with the Kv6 at all, so I do not know where these other O rings are located. But if they are located on the periphery of the engine itself, I have explained that simply before re the location of the M47 stat.


My own theories are that failures are a combination of both heat cycling, AND chemical interference, and one or other will lead to the ultimate fail. ie the heat causing the plastic to split and leak, or the O ring being chemically altered, failing, to cause the leak.

Remember when conducting your trials, you must account for all eventualities. This is one such eventuality that happens a *lot From my own experience both with this car and my mother from years ago (with a different car). After checking the coolant, refitting the expansion cap, but not tightening it sufficiently. Coolant leaks out, and is topped up with plain water - diluting the coolant a little. In her case only becoming aware of it when the temp light came on (no gauge). Driving with a reduced quantity of coolant, which MUST have some effect on the components.

*source: me, because it happened to me and my mother, therefore common.

Keep in mind too Simon, Jules relies on his reputation for his livelihood, and I suspect Brian relies on it for pride (reading back, I should add, from what I have read, I could guarantee Jules too, takes a great deal of pride in his work!). So neither I imagine will be willing to 'experiment' with people's cars using elimination to disprove theories. (o ring or plastic failure). Nor do I imagine people would wish to take a chance of failure by trying one or the other, when replacing both will almost certainly work, (it is also cheaper with time to do both at the same time!)

[marinabrian]

[QUOTE=clf;2653342]

Originally Posted by SD1too

I cannot provide other evidence in the short term to support my theory that clips positioning is responsible, but that doesn’t mean that the theory is automatically invalid.

Your theory will never be invalid, however, your theory could be debated or disproved (even if only with anecdotal evidence - ie those with the experience explaining how or why your theory can be disproven. Unless you disbelieve that experience).



We must wait for the result of my practical trial.
NO! we mustn't, that is a very egotistical statement to make. As Jules has now stated (and what I have been trying to imply), you CANNOT claim others practical experience of these issues is unscientific, whilst claiming yours to be. This is why I do not believe it to be practical for you, or for that matter most people! Where is your control, what means are you using to test with to demonstrate the various uses and operations the thousands of Kv6 engines that are currently in use, to give an accurate representation and demonstration of your theory
What I do know is that the leakage affects only a minority of cars How? How do you know this? You know of a few (relatively speaking - I imagine from various threads on boards such as these). To balance that out however, on the whole, Jules, and Brian will normally only see these instances as the cars will be brought to them with some fault, or coolant service.
That fact alone Alan should make you question Jules’ claim that the plastic spontaneously cracks and Brian’s that OAT affects the ‘O’ rings. Neither trader has yet produced a credible explanation of these theories. What? Why are the explanations they have given any less credible than yours? To be honest, as I read it, theirs are more credible than yours as they have had considerably more experience of rectifying the issues than you have - by what I have now had to accept, your own admission (you have been asked and ignored numerous times to validate your claims with qualification - even experience would be adequate for that!)

Have they? Jules hasn’t provided any evidence of broken plastic parts in situ, only after removal. I’ve asked him about his pressure test and he hasn’t explained how and when he performs this or shown the splits he alleges it reveals before the parts were removed. I believe he has now, or does he need to provide some form of independent witness to verify it? As for an explanation of pressure testing etc, you are trying to muddy a valid argument, ignoring your own absence of detail. In saying all of that, why can you not accept their word for their experiences? - this is the reason I felt I had to speak on this thread. It looked to me that you were suggesting that both Brian and Jules didnt know what they were talking about! That is how it reads to me!

Brian has produced a photograph of one severely damaged ‘O’ ring from a diesel and nothing from a KV6. This discussion has bounced around from the brittleness of plastics, and the breakdown of the O ring materials due to chmical interference, so forgive me if I am wrong on this, but Brian was discussing the failures of the O ring, whilst Jules was discussing both plastic component failure AND the O ring failure. But the fact that they do not take photographic evidence of their findings, does NOT make their theories incorrect. Nor does it mean their experiences did not happen either!!!! This thread reads as though you doubt not only their theories, but also their experience!


Why are only a minority of KV6s affected then? Again, who says it is a minority? There are various other factors to consider - one potential example would be people scrapping a car because it keeps losing water, and when taken to a garage, they throw K-Seal into it, and it still leaks, so it gets scrapped.
You’re claiming a basic design error which would affect them all. I am claiming NOTHING! Especially NOT a design error. I was putting forward a potential theory to answer your dismissal of the heat/plastic problem of a Kv6 stat within the V, as opposed to the relatively cooler stat of a diesel (I know you are only interested in the Kv6, but let's not let a valid variable disprove your theory)
Also, if it’s temperature related, why don’t all four ‘O’ rings visibly leak with the same vigour and in the current hot weather why aren’t we seeing a surge in failures? Current hot weather - seriously? Am I understanding you correctly? You are trying to muddy the argument up, by comparing the ambient temperature inside the confines of two banks of petrol cylinders, and the ambient temperature surrounding the car! As for the other O rings, I have explained, I am not familiar with the Kv6 at all, so I do not know where these other O rings are located. But if they are located on the periphery of the engine itself, I have explained that simply before re the location of the M47 stat.


My own theories are that failures are a combination of both heat cycling, AND chemical interference, and one or other will lead to the ultimate fail. ie the heat causing the plastic to split and leak, or the O ring being chemically altered, failing, to cause the leak.

Remember when conducting your trials, you must account for all eventualities. This is one such eventuality that happens a *lot From my own experience both with this car and my mother from years ago (with a different car). After checking the coolant, refitting the expansion cap, but not tightening it sufficiently. Coolant leaks out, and is topped up with plain water - diluting the coolant a little. In her case only becoming aware of it when the temp light came on (no gauge). Driving with a reduced quantity of coolant, which MUST have some effect on the components.

*source: me, because it happened to me and my mother, therefore common.

Blimey Alan, that makes a mockery of some of my own rants

Seriously though, you're right, you cannot base an entire theory on a case study of one car, while simultaneously dismissing collective experience of many cars of similar type.

Brian

[clf]

Originally Posted by Jules

Simon I suspect your KV6 has never been driven hard.
This makes a difference as to how brittle the plastic gets.

Originally Posted by SD1too

Oh really? How does it make a difference?



Simon

Because when an engine is pushed/driven hard, it will heat up quicker than one driven more gently. (You can verify this using the OBD). This is why the heat cycle creates a variable. ie heating the plastics gently will be less destructive than quickly, which can also introduce hot spots etc (as with a lot of things)

Originally Posted by SD1too

Jules, if we are to work together to solve this for the benefit of all KV6 owners your co-operation would be appreciated.

Simon

Well then stop dismissing others' experiences, observations and solutions based on your singular experience. Unless you add to your fleet, you can only throw your experience into the hat along with these other two guy's observations as one more variable. Your test cannot be considered a solution for all. however, if successful, you could consider it a solution for YOU and others who use their car in as close to the same manner as you do.