Water Leak Advice

[Redmaestro]

Quick question - how tight do the clips need to be on the straight pipe? On my existing pipe, I can get a long bladed screwdriver through the gaps of the manifold and rotate the clip right around the pipe with little effort.

Interestingly enough, its the 'stat end that is leaking and the clip is loose. I fitted it by hand but it seems it wasn't tight enough. The clip slides up and down the groove easily too. This is probably why its leaking....... (the kit I fitted was from dmgrs in-case anyone thinks it was a cheap ebay one)

Should I try and get a tighter fit when I fit the new one or is hand-tight enough?

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Redmaestro

Should I try and get a tighter fit when I fit the new one or is hand-tight enough?

Hi Simon,

Once you have moved the clips outwards so that they are in close contact with the water pump and thermostat housings, I would then squeeze them the minimum amount so that they cannot easily be moved out of position. It’s a matter of observation and judgement. You should be able to see, and feel, whether the serrated jaws can be tightened by another tooth. Just bear in mind that the material is plastic so apply only reasonable force. Leave the 18 inch Stillson’s in your tool box!

Simon

PS I don’t know what DMGRS supplies; are they genuine MG Rover parts?

[Jules]

Originally Posted by SD1too

That may be so Nige, but there is no proof that OAT has anything to do with it. My KV6 has original plastic coolant parts which have been subjected to OAT for 19 years with no ill effects. How do you explain that?

Simon

Simon can I ask the annual mileage of your KV6 does and what is it's total mileage?

We've changed 100's of kv6 plastic elbows and stats over the years which were visibly leaking from cracks (elbows) and at the joint ( stat housing) and NOT from the o rings

How can you say the stat housing doesn't suffer leaks when the net and this very forum are plastered with such cases ?!!!

We always pressure test a job before dismantling to see exactly where the leak is.


Whilst your knowledge is often helpful to other members this time it is simply misleading !

There are also cheap copies of the plastic parts flooding the market which don't even last a few months.
One of the suppliers is on here sadly.

And the OAT debate well everyone knows my views on that (well documented)

25% max and has been our policy since 2007.
(Still protects to -20C)
MGR got this horribly wrong.


Your experience is with one car am I correct?
I see and maintain 300 - 350 75's per year so we tend to spot any common faults or trends which as you know we report on here when time permits.

[Jules]

The clips are only there to stop the straight piece sliding too far to one side.

There is a distance of 8mm from the edge of the o ring to the edge of the stat or the water pump end.

It doesn't matter if you tighten the clips or leave them slightly lose they will still control the "end float" of the straight pipe.

Deliberately sliding the pipe as far as it will go either into the stat or into the engine block will not result in the o rings leaking as long as the clamps are in place.

Hope that clears up your querie?

The above only relates to genuine Xpart components.
If they are copies then the tolerances won't be the same and they will leak whatever you do

Jules

Originally Posted by Redmaestro

Quick question - how tight do the clips need to be on the straight pipe? On my existing pipe, I can get a long bladed screwdriver through the gaps of the manifold and rotate the clip right around the pipe with little effort.

Interestingly enough, its the 'stat end that is leaking and the clip is loose. I fitted it by hand but it seems it wasn't tight enough. The clip slides up and down the groove easily too. This is probably why its leaking....... (the kit I fitted was from dmgrs in-case anyone thinks it was a cheap ebay one)

Should I try and get a tighter fit when I fit the new one or is hand-tight enough?

[kaiser]

This site is like the real world. You get all sorts of advice from well meaning people. The problem is, not all the advice is good, and then what do you say or do?

Suffice it to say, that members must think, and do so carefully, when accepting advice. And also we should not be afraid of calling for proof and explanations.

As for Jules and antifreeze.
I did an experiment about two years ago. (28/4/2015) to be precise.
I use normal Ethylene Glycol, bought at a local chemical company, and I had corrosion damage (albeit small) in an engine I took apart. I doubted the efficacy of the ethylene glycol.
I bought 4 small see through plastic jars. In each, I placed a galvanised nail, a blue steel tack nail, and an ordinary pop-rivet. One jar just fitted a lid, thus air inside, one jar just water and a lid, one jar half water and half antifreeze, and one jar just antifreeze.
The results were visible after a couple of weeks. The pure water container very little rust, the pure ethylene glycol very rusty!! the 50/50 mix almost perfect, the dry glass perfect.
This has continued to today! Where the pure antifreeze is very corroded, the jar is almost black! But the best is the "dry" parts, and the next best the 50/50 mix, almost perfect, but not quite.
and the lesson that I have taken home is: Premix antifreeze, and keep in a container in the car. When a top up is necessary, you know what you fill, and can keep the mix constant.
Today I just regret I did not take a 25% solution as well to test. But the story is clear. Too much antifreeze in this case was not beneficial, at all!

The air on left, 50/50 mix, pure water and full antifreeze right.

[Jules]

Hello Kaiser
Great experiment.
I've done similar but with different types of o rings in jars submerged in different chemicals.

There's a slight flaw in your experiment when monitoring for corrosion......
You didn't heat the jars up to running temp for 100's of cycles.

This photo is from one of my customers 2001 51 plate 2.5 Auto taken recently.
It's had 25% OAT mix in it since 2008 so in effect it's my 10 year experiment!!

Waterways are I would say still perfect would you agree.

We had to renew the Continental brand water pump recently as it only lasted 20k miles since the last belt change (typical with today's after market stuff)

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[Jules]

Originally Posted by kaiser

This site is like the real world. You get all sorts of advice from well meaning people. The problem is, not all the advice is good, and then what do you say or do?

Suffice it to say, that members must think, and do so carefully, when accepting advice. And also we should not be afraid of calling for proof and explanations.

As for Jules and antifreeze.
I did an experiment about two years ago. (28/4/2015) to be precise.
I use normal Ethylene Glycol, bought at a local chemical company, and I had corrosion damage (albeit small) in an engine I took apart. I doubted the efficacy of the ethylene glycol.
I bought 4 small see through plastic jars. In each, I placed a galvanised nail, a blue steel tack nail, and an ordinary pop-rivet. One jar just fitted a lid, thus air inside, one jar just water and a lid, one jar half water and half antifreeze, and one jar just antifreeze.
The results were visible after a couple of weeks. The pure water container very little rust, the pure ethylene glycol very rusty!! the 50/50 mix almost perfect, the dry glass perfect.
This has continued to today! Where the pure antifreeze is very corroded, the jar is almost black! But the best is the "dry" parts, and the next best the 50/50 mix, almost perfect, but not quite.
and the lesson that I have taken home is: Premix antifreeze, and keep in a container in the car. When a top up is necessary, you know what you fill, and can keep the mix constant.
Today I just regret I did not take a 25% solution as well to test. But the story is clear. Too much antifreeze in this case was not beneficial, at all!

The air on left, 50/50 mix, pure water and full antifreeze right.

Hello Kaiser
Great experiment.
I've done similar but with different types of o rings in jars submerged in different chemicals.

There's a slight flaw in your experiment when monitoring for corrosion......
You didn't heat the jars up to running temp for 100's of cycles.

This photo is from one of my customers 2001 51 plate 2.5 Auto taken recently.
It's had 25% OAT mix in it since 2008 so in effect it's my 10 year experiment!!

Waterways are I would say still perfect would you agree.

We had to renew the Continental brand water pump recently as it only lasted 20k miles since the last belt change (typical with today's after market stuff)

Sent from my SM-G930F using Tapatalk

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Jules

How can you say the stat housing doesn't suffer leaks when the net and this very forum are plastered with such cases ?!!!

Hi Jules,

The answer to your question is straightforward. It is because a lot of people make assumptions and don’t test their theories. The antifreeze is sprayed upwards and residue forms on the seam because it is the widest point of the thermostat housing. On the face of it, no-one can be blamed for deducing from this that the seam must be leaking. Everyone (except me!) then replaces all three plastic components with new citing (a) “peace of mind” or (b) “I might as well having dismantled so much”. They never find out what the real cause is: the ‘O’ rings. The myth is therefore spread that it’s the housing which splits.

I have refitted the same housing several times after fitting new ‘O’ rings. It then doesn’t leak (until the next time). This proves that the housing has not split. If you’re going to say: “Well I’ve seen hundreds that have” I will ask: did you refit them just with new ‘O’ rings to prove the case?

We always pressure test a job before dismantling to see exactly where the leak is.

I’m interested in this Jules; please tell me more. Do you use external equipment to pressurise a cold cooling system? Do you remove the manifold chamber first?

And the OAT debate well everyone knows my views on that ..

Please see my post no. 9 in this thread for evidence concerning 50% OAT.

Your experience is with one car am I correct?

Yes, plus taking into account evidence from other members who both do and don’t suffer coolant leaks.
I acknowledge what you’re thinking Jules, but I don’t think you should dismiss an argument simply because it’s based upon the findings from a single car. What matters is the reasoning behind it, the tests that were carried out and how the conclusions were drawn.

Simon can I ask the annual mileage of your KV6 does and what is it's total mileage?

The annual mileage varies but is low, the total is currently just over 91,000. Why do you ask?

Whilst your knowledge is often helpful to other members this time it is simply misleading !

Obviously I have to defend myself against that accusation! It most certainly isn’t misleading. I’d recommend that you read my reasoning in this thread carefully, noting that when both clips are properly set it stops movement of the straight pipe and increases rigidity of the whole assembly. In your following post you appear to believe that movement is acceptable. I suggest that you should think again about that. In fact, why not put my idea to the test on one of your cars? It takes a few seconds, costs nothing and has no adverse effect on the engine.

Don’t forget to explain how you do the pressure test. Many thanks.


Simon

[marinabrian]

Originally Posted by Mr Logic

That may be so Nige, but there is no proof that OAT has anything to do with it. My KV6 has original plastic coolant parts which have been subjected to OAT for 19 years with no ill effects. How do you explain that?

Simon

My Grandfather smoked like a chimney and died of lung cancer, and my grandmother did likewise and lived until she was in her nineties and died peacefully in her sleep

So how do you explain that

Just because something is harmful, it affects differing individuals in different ways

[kaiser]

Simon. You are impossible. You have experienced a small fraction of all possible scenarios, and to you that that appears like the whole universe.
I have had thermostat housings break, in several pieces, crumble like a biscuit, split in a seam and break at the O-rings plus failures at the weld on the housing. These parts can be a real pain in the proverbial.

To blame this only on O-rings is -- well, ---- not very smart.

And your question about pressurising the cooling system with or without the manifold??? What manifold are you talking about? and why?

You are starting to work on my nerves, I would like to remain polite and respectful, but I am getting to the point where I find it difficult.