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Old 21st February 2019, 22:05   #111
MSS
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Totally irrelevant to this thread I know but I still have a 'COX' 0.49 glow motor I bought in 1975, it's done hundreds of hours over many many years in many different aircraft and still buzzes like a mad thing. lol.
Sorry to the OP for this pointless post. i'll shut up now.

No need to apologise - I suspect the OP has probably lost the will to live and resigned from the club after seeing the 100 odd posts to his simple answer!


Tool snob - who is that then Brian?
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Old 22nd February 2019, 08:41   #112
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You still fail to understand that I have no need to substantiate or prove anything to you.
...[Trimmed as irrelevant descent into downright rudeness]


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If you believe that what I say is incorrect, you need to state why and if you feel so inclined, back it up with science/theory. The fact that the formula I wrote applies to transient generation from inductive loads would be understood by any AS-level physics student with any understanding of basic electromagnetic principles. The fact that you equated the formula to "spinning magnetic field" told me all that I needed to know of your understanding of the field.

You couldn't be more wrong in any of the above. If I say the moon is made of blue cheese, is it up to someone else to disprove or for me to prove?

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What you had stated was that other than the alternator, there were no large inductors (meaning capable of generating transients) in our cars. I listed a whole host that are present in all cars.
Hardly a 'host' The starter motor and some relays most of which won't be connected to the battery with ign off.



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You may care to study the following application note from Harris Semiconductor - people who design and manufacture transient suppressors for automotive applications - and note item 4 in the table on page 2, i.e.

< 320μs Inductive-load Switching transient <1J -300v to +8-V often

http://www.industrologic.com/autotransients.pdf
Finally! something to back up your theory, I'll happily give it a look....


...Yep, done that - Unfortunately it doesn't support your theory. Although voltage spikes are possible during battery disconnection this is with the engine running, the spikes discussed in the above linked note are related to jumpstarting and removing the battery while the alternator is generating voltage (i.e. engine running and ign on ). No mention of battery disconnection with the ign off being any concern at all.



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What formula do you think applies when these are generated?

If you wish, please state why you believe that the formula I stated does not apply as I stated, which was that it shows the amplitude of the generated transient is dependent on the rate of change of current (the dI/dt term) and the inductance does not have to be very large to to generate a large transient voltage.

Even better, why don't you suggest a formula yourself? This should be easy for you given your extensive knowledge.

I will leave it there, so that you can have the last post.

I will say that when you don't understand something, a little less of the idiotic arrogance will go a long way!

Again, let's try and be clear:
  1. I made one jest about your presentation of Lenz's law formula
  2. You are under the false impression that I think it wouldn't apply (because of #1?), I just don't believe that presenting a formula on it's own proves your theory.
  3. Again, Proof of a claim/theory lies with the person making it, not the absence of disproof !!! Repeatedly throwing out your theory and asserting that it's true until disproved doesn't automagically make you right. Although you seemingly repeatedly ignore this point, your failure to acknowledge it won't make it go away. Perhaps I should rephrase in more common vernacular: Put up, or shut up.
  4. Why don't I suggest a formula? What for? A formula that nothing bad will happen when you disconnect your battery from a car (R75) without the engine running and the Ign off? how about : 0 = 0?
  5. More repeats of your earlier abuse: just goes to show that you don't seem capable of remaining civil. (I've deliberately left them in the quote this time). It does absolutely nothing to establish your assertion of voltage spikes when disconnecting a battery with the ign off.


Apologies to other readers for the metaphoric raising of my voice there, sometimes all you can do is emphasise or speak louder when something important is being ignored...
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Old 22nd February 2019, 09:07   #113
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We all here are Rovers lovers and keen to help each other.
Hence all those acrimonious exchanges make me feel rather sad and even sick sometimes.
Behave yourselves gentlemen...
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Old 22nd February 2019, 09:10   #114
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Thank you, your sentiments align exactly with mine.

I bought a Lidl microprocessor controlled charger about 18 months ago just to see what it was like internally given all the glowing reprots on the forum. All I will say is that only my CTEK and Optimate maintenance chargers are connected to my car batteries in-situ.

The cheap one is reserved for the odd occasion that I want to give a maintenance charge to the ride-on lawnmower battery or the spare battery in the garage as these are completely isolated from any of the vehicle's electronics.

I too have looked inside them - well made, to modern standards, good design and using microprocessors to carefully control the charge process. In fact just like the Ctek. I have past experience of the Optimate - they were absolute rubbish, not to be trusted.


I think you are over reacting in respect to these chargers. I have lots of batteries I need to maintain and have three or four of the Aldi/Lidl chargers. As an engineer, I have checked the way they work and satisfied myself that they are perfectly good, safe chargers. I have three large batteries which I am quite happy to charge once per month in situ (and still connected), including that of the 75 - absolutely no reason not to as I have done for many years.



All the warnings about never charging a battery whilst connected to the car, are an hangover from the days of uncontrolled chargers from pre 1980's and the rapid boost chargers, which can take the battery voltage very high and wreck the electronics on modern cars. None of which is an issue with modern chargers.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 10:32   #115
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I too have looked inside them - well made, to modern standards, good design and using microprocessors to carefully control the charge process. In fact just like the Ctek. I have past experience of the Optimate - they were absolute rubbish, not to be trusted.


I think you are over reacting in respect to these chargers. I have lots of batteries I need to maintain and have three or four of the Aldi/Lidl chargers. As an engineer, I have checked the way they work and satisfied myself that they are perfectly good, safe chargers. I have three large batteries which I am quite happy to charge once per month in situ (and still connected), including that of the 75 - absolutely no reason not to as I have done for many years.

All the warnings about never charging a battery whilst connected to the car, are an hangover from the days of uncontrolled chargers from pre 1980's and the rapid boost chargers, which can take the battery voltage very high and wreck the electronics on modern cars. None of which is an issue with modern chargers.
Harry - I really have no axe to grind about what other people do with their cars. What I did do to start off with was to state my experiences, what I would/would not do and my experience of cheap electronics in general and the Lidl charger in particular.

But, when people spread misinformation, in my opinion it should be corrected so that others can make their own decisions based on correct information. Especially, if people throw in a bit of "science" or lose terminology to give plausibility to the misinformation e.g. describing the Lidl charger as a CTEK copy.

I have not stated any warnings about charging whilst the battery is connected to the car - in fact quite the opposite in that I stated one of mine has been connected since October.

My experience with Optimate chargers has been very positive. The Lidl charger not so. My experience with the electronics in generic CFL and LED bulbs is similar - Philips and Megaman for example last about 10 times longer than the generic far-eastern ones. An Optimate was my first intelligent charger and is now 20ish years old and still working perfectly.

Most people with knowledge (I think you will agree?) of PC PSU's will not put a generic (regardless of how labelled) far-eastern one in their £300 PC. They lack quality protection circuitry and the the power semiconductor and reactive components have a history of premature failure. That being the case, it surprises me that people are willing to put a charger using components of the same origin or heritage on a car where the electronics, if damaged, could cost anything from £1k to £10k to diagnose/replace. But, as already stated, this is my rationale for taking the approach that I do with items such as chargers.

I have stated that I use the Lidl charger on my ride-on and stand-alone batteries because of the lack of significant risk to sophisticated and expensive electronics in these applications. The quality of the leads and connectors on the Lidl and CTEK chargers in my opinion is miles apart. Even if one knew nothing about electronics of far eastern origin, that alone would provide some food for thought about the internals.

I apply similar rationale to most tools - I have a Silverline torque wrench which is kept in the boot of my car for tightening up wheel nuts. For this purpose, I can trust it's accuracy. But, when it comes to tightening up the oil drain plug on my quad or motorbike, it is the Halfords Advance (manufactured by Norbar) every time.

A genuine question - let's say you owned a Mercedes CLS or a Jaguar XKR. Would you feel confident leaving a rebadged generic charger connected to it for months on end? If so, as an engineer, would you consider that a good "risk avoidance" strategy?

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Old 22nd February 2019, 14:07   #116
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My concern with the cheap items - which are cheap for a reason which is that they use cheap components and have not invested in RD&D - is the integrity of car's electronics in the case of failures rather than the battery. I consider batteries to be consumable/scarificial items and never hesitate to change a battery.

As I said earlier, compare the lifespan of Infenion MOSFETS and other semiconductor components with their copies or equivalents from certain parts of the world, then the price differences, and you will soon know a) why the some chargers can be purchased for circa £15 and b) why others cost circa £60.

The LIDL and ALDI chargers are very good value, in that they are equivalent to £20 chargers but are sold for £13. If you are happy with such a device, great.

But, always ask yourself, with a modern car's electronics worth £5k to £20k, is the difference between £13 and £60 material?

As it happens, I bought my third CTEK 2 weeks ago - a MSX 5.0. So now I have 3* CTEK, 1* Optimate and 1* LIDL plus a traditional non-auto 4A/8A Halfords device. The CTEK is worth every penny when you look at it's design, construction and quality of materials.

And where do you imagine all of these items are made? China, all are manufactured in China. CTEK, Lidl, Aldi all get their supply from China, assembled in China, the components are made in China.



What you are paying for in most cases, is just the name on the box. What makes the contents of one box designed to do the same job, worth 20x times that of another box - just they hype around the name in most cases.



One seller sells HDMI leads for £2, another seller sells gold plated oxygen free HDMI leads with 'special insulation' for £300. Purchasers swear they can tell the difference in the much better audio and picture rendition via the £300 lead. They claim the quality improvements are so very subtle that most viewers and listeners cannot tell the difference - of course they have to justify their paying £298 extra for the same item.


Lidl have 300g Ginger Nuts not on special offer, 25p per pack. Tesco have 250g Ginger Nuts for £1. Which do I prefer on pure taste not value - the lidl ones, which is where I am heading right now, for another packet 25p a £1, makes no odds to me, I buy ones I like the taste of.



The kings clothes syndrome applies - some people just like to justify paying more for the same thing.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 14:08   #117
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I apply similar rationale to most tools - I have a Silverline torque wrench which is kept in the boot of my car for tightening up wheel nuts. For this purpose, I can trust it's accuracy. But, when it comes to tightening up the oil drain plug on my quad or motorbike, it is the Halfords Advance (manufactured by Norbar) every time.

A genuine question - let's say you owned a Mercedes CLS or a Jaguar XKR. Would you feel confident leaving a rebadged generic charger connected to it for months on end? If so, as an engineer, would you consider that a good "risk avoidance" strategy?
Unless it's tested on calibrated torque analyser, it's pretty much guess work to see which is most accurate. I used to check them on said device you'd be surprised how often the norbar ones failed.


No, but then I drive the car often enough it wouldn't be an issue. That's what cars are there for, driving.
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Old 22nd February 2019, 14:18   #118
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And where do you imagine all of these items are made? China, all are manufactured in China. CTEK, Lidl, Aldi all get their supply from China, assembled in China, the components are made in China.

What you are paying for in most cases, is just the name on the box. What makes the contents of one box designed to do the same job, worth 20x times that of another box - just they hype around the name in most cases.

One seller sells HDMI leads for £2, another seller sells gold plated oxygen free HDMI leads with 'special insulation' for £300. Purchasers swear they can tell the difference in the much better audio and picture rendition via the £300 lead. They claim the quality improvements are so very subtle that most viewers and listeners cannot tell the difference - of course they have to justify their paying £298 extra for the same item.

Lidl have 300g Ginger Nuts not on special offer, 25p per pack. Tesco have 250g Ginger Nuts for £1. Which do I prefer on pure taste not value - the lidl ones, which is where I am heading right now, for another packet 25p a £1, makes no odds to me, I buy ones I like the taste of.

The kings clothes syndrome applies - some people just like to justify paying more for the same thing.
People can believe that an iPhone or a Samsung mobile coming out of a factory in China will be of the same quality as all the generic phones coming out of the same region. Ditto semiconductors. I do not. But we will be in danger of repeating the earlier posts.



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Unless it's tested on calibrated torque analyser, it's pretty much guess work to see which is most accurate. I used to check them on said device you'd be surprised how often the norbar ones failed.


No, but then I drive the car often enough it wouldn't be an issue. That's what cars are there for, driving.

My halfords advance are - each piece came with an individual test certificate with actual measurements at a number of torque settings
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Old 22nd February 2019, 15:20   #119
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My halfords advance are - each piece came with an individual test certificate with actual measurements at a number of torque settings

At build yes, but to ensure they are still accurate they should be tested at regular intervals, every three months. Very rarely out when new but over time they can become less accurate. How old is the certificate?
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Old 22nd February 2019, 17:18   #120
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At build yes, but to ensure they are still accurate they should be tested at regular intervals, every three months. Very rarely out when new but over time they can become less accurate. How old is the certificate?

They only need to be tested every 3 - 12 months if in constant use. This is the same with most electronic measurement equipment. Mine are used a couple times in a year and the certificate is about 15 months old.

In any case, the cheap ones such as the one in the boot of my car (which is sold under many different names) have been tested when new and the readings are shall we say inconsistent across samples. But for a wheel nut it serves the purpose.
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