Intake manifold rattle

Rsnail · 26th February 2017, 15:31

Unfortunately got the ugly rattle in my intake manifold, and as far as I've read thr most common culprit is one or both of the have VIS motors, after a little thinking I have a few questions regarding the subject:

1. Basically, if one of the motors is the cause of the rattling issue, if I disconnect both of them and run the engine like that, the rattle should go away because the butterflies inside the manifold wouldn't be trained anymore, right?

2. Besides the rattle, are there any other repercussions to the problem like performance loss or something?

3. Can I somehow test the motors by myself without putting them to another KV6 engine and without buying the test box peeps talking about here?

Rsnail · 27th February 2017, 08:13

Anyone? If someone doesn't know the answer to all my questions atleast help me with the ones you know

Jamiewelch · 27th February 2017, 08:30

You have got a faulty vis motor, you posted in previous threads you had an error P1472 which is a faulty vis motor. I can't remember off the top of my head which one it is but someone might know?

Even if the vis motors are unplugged and they are causing the rattle the rattle will remain as when they die they stay stuck where they are. What you need is a definite good set of motors to put in and try.

With a knackered motor you will be losing fuel economy, power and torque depending on which has failed and where it has failed.

mh007 · 27th February 2017, 08:40

Your rattle may well be a broken butterfly mechanism inside the inlet manifold.

Rsnail · 27th February 2017, 09:08

Tbh I don't really care about the rattle, if it goes away by replacing one of the faulty vis motors of course it's no problem (or both, if both are faulty). But is there a way I can find out which one is faulty with T4 and not having to test them from the "outside"? I wouldn't spend money on both only to find out that only one is broken

I am only intersted to replace them because of the power loss at different rpms and because of fuel economy of course

But as far as I can feel the car, I can feel the "surge" happening at about 3000 rpm so don't really know what the problem would be with the VIS motors, that's why I want to find out if and which one is faulty.

Rsnail · 28th February 2017, 08:59

Ok so I've looked into the subject about vis motors a bit, but the things that I can't get my head around are:

1. What is the difference between the balance valve that comes right from the balance vis and the power valves that are acted by the power vis motor, and how do they work together?

2. After looking at this diagram:

I concluded that, for example if you are normally driving aroung 1700 rpm for example with throttle opening lower than 31 degrees, balance valve and power valves will be both open because you don't need that much torque, but if you suddenly press the gas pedal, until you reach 2980 rpms the balance and power valves will be closed and after passing 31 degrees throttle, and after you are above 2980 rpms up until 4350 rpms with the throttle opening higher than 43 degrees you will be in case B which is balance valve open and power valve closed, this was just an example

Rsnail · 30th June 2017, 18:41

Ok guys, so after a long time decided to buy a soldering iron and fix the issue, so, after deleting the errors many times, I was left all this time only with the error P1471, not knowing which motor this error leads to, took out both for a spin, found out that for the power one the relay was dead, measured the whole pcb connections, all good, 12v to the small motor, all good, measured the microswitches and pressed their buttons to see if they are interrupting the current, all good, measured the diode, all good, so I changed the relay with a identical one, double checked, all good, now I was left with the balance motor, opened it, same procedure, measured all the components, everything fine, excent for a connection on the pcb board being interrupted, so I soldered a small cable from point to point on the track that it was interrupted, measured to see if fixed, all good (also made sure that all the other nearest connections weren't shorting eachother at the point where the small track got interrupted). So, everything fixed for both motors, threw them back in, and got out for a ride, the difference was ASTONISHING, first, second, and even third gear, at relative low rpms, the car was feeling like a rocket, I've been used to it's sluggishness and the difference was a lot more than noticeable, so the motors are both working, BUT, and here comes my question, run my torque app fault code tester, the P1471 error is still there, tried to delete it more than 10 times, in every single way, and it always reappears again, tried erasing it with engine running, ignition on, engine running and then sending command to erase and then turning engine off, engine running while driving, it always comes back again, but as I've said, the motors are definitely working. Any ideas? Thank you for all the help provided!

Rsnail · 3rd July 2017, 18:54

Anybody???

Rsnail · 4th July 2017, 17:49

As I've figured out today, forgot to test the small DC motor for the balance vis, took it out today, tested it on 5v, dead, then 12v, dead, but in the meantime, my Autocom DS100E diagnostic tester arrived, so I tested both motors with it, as already figured out, the power vis was working (after replacing the small relay beforehand), and the balance one is gone, connections on the board are all good now (also after resoldering them last time when opened to check), but when gave command to test the small balance DC motor, came a little smoke out of it. Now my question is, anyone knows where can I buy ONLY the small DC motor to replace it on the PCB board? As far as I can see, it is a Johnson motor, but can't find it looking by it's code or pieces of it. Thank you!

vitesse · 4th July 2017, 19:43

One advantage of buying reconditioned motors from Stocktake is that he uses a unique, wider PCB in the balance motor (designed by Mad Monkey). As you’ve already seen, the standard PCB isn’t up to the environment, it’s failed once and will probably fail again at some time in the future.

I’ve ordered close on a hundred of these motors from Stocktake and supply the local Rover Club of Sweden's V6 owners here (and Denmark), Dave checks them twice before despatch, I re-test them prior to sending them onwards with complete confidence that “his” motors will last. Sometimes owners will do daft things with them before fitting and require resetting but I’ve yet to have a “Dave” motor returned to me that has failed. There’s a moral there somewhere. Sure it’s nice to resurrect broken bits yourself, but if you want a permanent solution …..

I suggest you PM Dave “Stocktake” and ask him about the motor, he might even have one spare, but bear in mind Dave’s health is not too good so you might have to wait for a reply.

Off to another meet tomorrow and expect to have four or six more motors to send him, which is still less than last month’s 10 !

Regards

ps Toaf can test the motors too, and it’s free.

26th February 2017, 15:31	#1
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	Intake manifold rattle Unfortunately got the ugly rattle in my intake manifold, and as far as I've read thr most common culprit is one or both of the have VIS motors, after a little thinking I have a few questions regarding the subject: 1. Basically, if one of the motors is the cause of the rattling issue, if I disconnect both of them and run the engine like that, the rattle should go away because the butterflies inside the manifold wouldn't be trained anymore, right? 2. Besides the rattle, are there any other repercussions to the problem like performance loss or something? 3. Can I somehow test the motors by myself without putting them to another KV6 engine and without buying the test box peeps talking about here?

28th February 2017, 08:59	#6
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	Ok so I've looked into the subject about vis motors a bit, but the things that I can't get my head around are: 1. What is the difference between the balance valve that comes right from the balance vis and the power valves that are acted by the power vis motor, and how do they work together? 2. After looking at this diagram: I concluded that, for example if you are normally driving aroung 1700 rpm for example with throttle opening lower than 31 degrees, balance valve and power valves will be both open because you don't need that much torque, but if you suddenly press the gas pedal, until you reach 2980 rpms the balance and power valves will be closed and after passing 31 degrees throttle, and after you are above 2980 rpms up until 4350 rpms with the throttle opening higher than 43 degrees you will be in case B which is balance valve open and power valve closed, this was just an example Last edited by Rsnail; 28th February 2017 at 16:15..

27th February 2017, 08:13	#2
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	Anyone? If someone doesn't know the answer to all my questions atleast help me with the ones you know

27th February 2017, 08:30	#3
Jamiewelch Posted a thing or two Alpina D3 Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Cheslyn hay Posts: 1,002 Thanks: 58 Thanked 294 Times in 227 Posts	You have got a faulty vis motor, you posted in previous threads you had an error P1472 which is a faulty vis motor. I can't remember off the top of my head which one it is but someone might know? Even if the vis motors are unplugged and they are causing the rattle the rattle will remain as when they die they stay stuck where they are. What you need is a definite good set of motors to put in and try. With a knackered motor you will be losing fuel economy, power and torque depending on which has failed and where it has failed.

27th February 2017, 08:40	#4
mh007 This is my second home MG ZT260 SE, MG ZT190+, MG ZTT 160, R75 Conn SE 2.0, R75 Conn SE 2.5 X 3, R75 Club SE 1.8, P5B Coupe Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Keynsham, Bristol Posts: 4,211 Thanks: 65 Thanked 635 Times in 499 Posts	Your rattle may well be a broken butterfly mechanism inside the inlet manifold.

27th February 2017, 09:08	#5
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	Tbh I don't really care about the rattle, if it goes away by replacing one of the faulty vis motors of course it's no problem (or both, if both are faulty). But is there a way I can find out which one is faulty with T4 and not having to test them from the "outside"? I wouldn't spend money on both only to find out that only one is broken I am only intersted to replace them because of the power loss at different rpms and because of fuel economy of course But as far as I can feel the car, I can feel the "surge" happening at about 3000 rpm so don't really know what the problem would be with the VIS motors, that's why I want to find out if and which one is faulty.

30th June 2017, 18:41	#7
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	Ok guys, so after a long time decided to buy a soldering iron and fix the issue, so, after deleting the errors many times, I was left all this time only with the error P1471, not knowing which motor this error leads to, took out both for a spin, found out that for the power one the relay was dead, measured the whole pcb connections, all good, 12v to the small motor, all good, measured the microswitches and pressed their buttons to see if they are interrupting the current, all good, measured the diode, all good, so I changed the relay with a identical one, double checked, all good, now I was left with the balance motor, opened it, same procedure, measured all the components, everything fine, excent for a connection on the pcb board being interrupted, so I soldered a small cable from point to point on the track that it was interrupted, measured to see if fixed, all good (also made sure that all the other nearest connections weren't shorting eachother at the point where the small track got interrupted). So, everything fixed for both motors, threw them back in, and got out for a ride, the difference was ASTONISHING, first, second, and even third gear, at relative low rpms, the car was feeling like a rocket, I've been used to it's sluggishness and the difference was a lot more than noticeable, so the motors are both working, BUT, and here comes my question, run my torque app fault code tester, the P1471 error is still there, tried to delete it more than 10 times, in every single way, and it always reappears again, tried erasing it with engine running, ignition on, engine running and then sending command to erase and then turning engine off, engine running while driving, it always comes back again, but as I've said, the motors are definitely working. Any ideas? Thank you for all the help provided!

3rd July 2017, 18:54	#8
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	Anybody???

4th July 2017, 17:49	#9
Rsnail Gets stuck in Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: May 2015 Location: Essen (Oldenburg), Germany Posts: 626 Thanks: 59 Thanked 30 Times in 28 Posts	As I've figured out today, forgot to test the small DC motor for the balance vis, took it out today, tested it on 5v, dead, then 12v, dead, but in the meantime, my Autocom DS100E diagnostic tester arrived, so I tested both motors with it, as already figured out, the power vis was working (after replacing the small relay beforehand), and the balance one is gone, connections on the board are all good now (also after resoldering them last time when opened to check), but when gave command to test the small balance DC motor, came a little smoke out of it. Now my question is, anyone knows where can I buy ONLY the small DC motor to replace it on the PCB board? As far as I can see, it is a Johnson motor, but can't find it looking by it's code or pieces of it. Thank you!

4th July 2017, 19:43	#10
vitesse I really should get out more....... Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Gävle Posts: 2,533 Thanks: 395 Thanked 823 Times in 652 Posts	One advantage of buying reconditioned motors from Stocktake is that he uses a unique, wider PCB in the balance motor (designed by Mad Monkey). As you’ve already seen, the standard PCB isn’t up to the environment, it’s failed once and will probably fail again at some time in the future. I’ve ordered close on a hundred of these motors from Stocktake and supply the local Rover Club of Sweden's V6 owners here (and Denmark), Dave checks them twice before despatch, I re-test them prior to sending them onwards with complete confidence that “his” motors will last. Sometimes owners will do daft things with them before fitting and require resetting but I’ve yet to have a “Dave” motor returned to me that has failed. There’s a moral there somewhere. Sure it’s nice to resurrect broken bits yourself, but if you want a permanent solution ….. I suggest you PM Dave “Stocktake” and ask him about the motor, he might even have one spare, but bear in mind Dave’s health is not too good so you might have to wait for a reply. Off to another meet tomorrow and expect to have four or six more motors to send him, which is still less than last month’s 10 ! Regards ps Toaf can test the motors too, and it’s free.