KV6 190 - Upgrades?? - Page 12

Elliott · 8th August 2016, 19:30

240 Nm (177 ft·lb) at 4000 rpm
177 PS (175 bhp) (130 kW)at 6500 rpm Rover KV6

150 hp/4000 rpm.
310 Nm/1500 rpm. Audi B5 2.5 TDI V6

70 Nm difference in max torque.

Not a lot, but I think with modern drivers a lot have got used to Diesel low RPM torque to give us the punch we desire with a massive hair dryer bolted on to increase the capacity of air going in.

So working on the principle that a turbo increases that air going in by aprox 30-40 percent, your 2,5 ltr engine on boost at that time is equivalent to (2496cc x 35%) at least a 3.3ltrs (rounded up) engine producing its max torque at 1500 rpm, then the boost peters out and decreases with a red line of 4500-5000rpm, the KV6 is just waking up at these revs!!!

But us old school

drivers who grew up on petrol have no qualms revving a petrol engine to get the power out, instead of trickling off the line at 1200 1500 rpm and letting the boost build the revs for you as in a diesel we will blip throttle increase the revs (hence lightning and balancing a bottom end to build revs up quicker) and revving to 3-4000 rpm in a petrol to get a quick start off the line and letting the power build.

Despite what people think they just do not drive a petrol aggressively enough anymore to optimize max power, look at the KV6 max torque 4000 rpm max power 6500 rpm, how often do people drive their petrol at those revs and expect the low down power of a diesel. With a petrol its all about revs revs revs. We have just become lazy, and frightened to rev a petrol because at those revs a diesel has long since run out of puff and is on its way to throwing a rod and scared of using fuel.

Would like to see the Audi against the Rover (driven hard on the revs near the red line) in a half mile dash, I think a lot of people would be really surprised at the outcome, especially as the Audi would need a lot more gear changes due to using up its boost very quickly and running out of puff. off the line and the First 100-200 yds the Audi would have guts but the longer revs of the Rover would soon stretch and surprise.

maxi_crawf · 9th August 2016, 10:14

Well I know I'm no expert and I can only go by practical experience but I agree with some of the comments by Elliot,

I've now had the same Conny cdt for 10 years and got used to the way it runs,
in March I bought a 190 (call it mid-life crisis

)
and even now I still occasionally drive it like a Diesel, keeping the revs down and changing up the gears too early, and conversely going down the gears too late, but I'll get there,
but when I use the engine as it's supposed to be used, well that's a different story

I told some of the members (and you know who you are) that when I collected it and drove back home at 60 they were almost crying with laughter

minimutly · 9th August 2016, 12:43

Usually when I get left behind by a turbo diesel family car, a look down at my rev counter reveals less than 4k revs. Wrong gear, simple as that.
The diesel torque is way lower than the kv6, and if driven lazily will allways be quicker, so yes, a modern TD will allways be quicker off the mark.
Part of the difference is in the way the td gets to its rev limit - its low ish revs, quiet (inside at least). Whereas the v6 is howling at peak revs, and sounds fantastic btw.

maxi_crawf · 9th August 2016, 13:59

I agree, when you give it the revs and 'stir the pudding' (as intended) it sounds marvellous, especially after I had a stainless cat back mid sporting system fitted

when I was asked what I wanted (Tony Banks) I said that I wanted a bit more of that V6 letting out but not to 'P' off the neighbours, he looked at me, smiled and said 'I know what you need'

and he was right on the button as far as I'm concerned.

TomRS · 11th August 2016, 06:00

No this was side by side straight off a roundabout 2nd redline to 4th redline it was pretty even keel till the end of 3rd then when i went for 4th the B5 started to pull on me and then sailed past mid way through 4th.

Trust me i know how to "stir the pudding" i drive Hondas... these dont make power unless your at like 6000rpm everywhere.

In fact im the opposite of the lazy driver, i find myself downshifting too early in diesels i cant get the hang of the low end power as im that used to NASP high end performance.
I like to work for my achievement i'd pick a nice well sorted NA motor over a turbo any day of the week.
The only reason im looking into Supercharging for more power on the K6 is simply for what its used for (work and back, towing) i'd rather have the mid range.
If it was something i wanted to throw around and use in a different way it would have a built NA engine.

I completely agree with you lot, most of the time gear selection is the downfall.
I am really going to look into using a 6spd gearbox from something else FWD with use of an adapter plate.
Im not sure... i really want to play with the 190 because of how much i love the thing.
Just seems every avenue is a road no ones walked down before.

Probably because most are happy enough with how it is, but me i like to play around too much haha!

Also... the Audi isnt modern, it isnt even commonrail its 1999.... also has 228k miles on it.
So it should be slower than my 190... maybe its just aged well? like a fine whiskey?

Neil1 · 11th August 2016, 07:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomRS

No this was side by side straight off a roundabout 2nd redline to 4th redline it was pretty even keel till the end of 3rd then when i went for 4th the B5 started to pull on me and then sailed past mid way through 4th.

Trust me i know how to "stir the pudding" i drive Hondas... these dont make power unless your at like 6000rpm everywhere.

In fact im the opposite of the lazy driver, i find myself downshifting too early in diesels i cant get the hang of the low end power as im that used to NASP high end performance.
I like to work for my achievement i'd pick a nice well sorted NA motor over a turbo any day of the week.
The only reason im looking into Supercharging for more power on the K6 is simply for what its used for (work and back, towing) i'd rather have the mid range.
If it was something i wanted to throw around and use in a different way it would have a built NA engine.

I completely agree with you lot, most of the time gear selection is the downfall.
I am really going to look into using a 6spd gearbox from something else FWD with use of an adapter plate.
Im not sure... i really want to play with the 190 because of how much i love the thing.
Just seems every avenue is a road no ones walked down before.

Probably because most are happy enough with how it is, but me i like to play around too much haha!

Also... the Audi isnt modern, it isnt even commonrail its 1999.... also has 228k miles on it.
So it should be slower than my 190... maybe its just aged well? like a fine whiskey?

The Audi has years of history behind it plus the development of the first Quattro used in Rallying really helped.
It became such a huge success story!

Rover well, they didn't really have any grounding in the RAC Rallies plus backing of the original Company went to the wall. BMW asset stripped.

All of the engines are good engines except most have a sedate life and nobody really thinks about extracting power to the limits.

Except for a few members on here who are able to do chip upgrades and give these cars more of what it needs.

I found this website Torque Cars that explains what can be done but I must admit there is limited information on tuning our cars.

The problem is the lifespan of our cars they were only built for a few short years so you have to look at other models that use the same engines.

TomRS · 11th August 2016, 08:25

Good website that... keeping me entertained reading it.

I think the best thing i can do is buy a spare KV6 and start playing with building it.
Question is do i go with a 2 litre or a 2.5?
I'd really like to get something started but it wont be until the winter months as i genuinely am a little skint after buying that other Accord.

maxi_crawf · 11th August 2016, 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomRS

Good website that... keeping me entertained reading it.

I think the best thing i can do is buy a spare KV6 and start playing with building it.
Question is do i go with a 2 litre or a 2.5?
I'd really like to get something started but it wont be until the winter months as i genuinely am a little skint after buying that other Accord.

Best time is when you are 'skint' makes you a bit more careful, I get the impression that there are loads out there, just don't buy the first one you see, unless you are lucky

Christopher Price · 11th August 2016, 10:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by TomRS

I am really going to look into using a 6spd gearbox from something else FWD with use of an adapter plate.

I'm pretty sure that I saw something on the internet about someone using the 6 speed gearbox from a BMW Mini Cooper S, not sure if it happened though.

TomRS · 11th August 2016, 10:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Christopher Price

I'm pretty sure that I saw something on the internet about someone using the 6 speed gearbox from a BMW Mini Cooper S, not sure if it happened though.

Well now thats interesting, i'd be very interested in something like that...

8th August 2016, 19:30	#111
Elliott Loves to post Rover 75 Tourer Join Date: Nov 2015 Location: Sheerness Posts: 261 Thanks: 174 Thanked 61 Times in 50 Posts	240 Nm (177 ft·lb) at 4000 rpm 177 PS (175 bhp) (130 kW)at 6500 rpm Rover KV6 150 hp/4000 rpm. 310 Nm/1500 rpm. Audi B5 2.5 TDI V6 70 Nm difference in max torque. Not a lot, but I think with modern drivers a lot have got used to Diesel low RPM torque to give us the punch we desire with a massive hair dryer bolted on to increase the capacity of air going in. So working on the principle that a turbo increases that air going in by aprox 30-40 percent, your 2,5 ltr engine on boost at that time is equivalent to (2496cc x 35%) at least a 3.3ltrs (rounded up) engine producing its max torque at 1500 rpm, then the boost peters out and decreases with a red line of 4500-5000rpm, the KV6 is just waking up at these revs!!! But us old school drivers who grew up on petrol have no qualms revving a petrol engine to get the power out, instead of trickling off the line at 1200 1500 rpm and letting the boost build the revs for you as in a diesel we will blip throttle increase the revs (hence lightning and balancing a bottom end to build revs up quicker) and revving to 3-4000 rpm in a petrol to get a quick start off the line and letting the power build. Despite what people think they just do not drive a petrol aggressively enough anymore to optimize max power, look at the KV6 max torque 4000 rpm max power 6500 rpm, how often do people drive their petrol at those revs and expect the low down power of a diesel. With a petrol its all about revs revs revs. We have just become lazy, and frightened to rev a petrol because at those revs a diesel has long since run out of puff and is on its way to throwing a rod and scared of using fuel. Would like to see the Audi against the Rover (driven hard on the revs near the red line) in a half mile dash, I think a lot of people would be really surprised at the outcome, especially as the Audi would need a lot more gear changes due to using up its boost very quickly and running out of puff. off the line and the First 100-200 yds the Audi would have guts but the longer revs of the Rover would soon stretch and surprise. __________________ I would be so fast if I could only get going Last edited by Elliott; 8th August 2016 at 20:30.. Reason: miss calculation in torque difference

11th August 2016, 06:00	#115
TomRS Posted a thing or two Mk1 ZT 190 - Mk2 ZS 180 - Mercedes E63 AMG S - Ford Ranger Hawk Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Middlesbrough Posts: 1,456 Thanks: 123 Thanked 409 Times in 281 Posts	No this was side by side straight off a roundabout 2nd redline to 4th redline it was pretty even keel till the end of 3rd then when i went for 4th the B5 started to pull on me and then sailed past mid way through 4th. Trust me i know how to "stir the pudding" i drive Hondas... these dont make power unless your at like 6000rpm everywhere. In fact im the opposite of the lazy driver, i find myself downshifting too early in diesels i cant get the hang of the low end power as im that used to NASP high end performance. I like to work for my achievement i'd pick a nice well sorted NA motor over a turbo any day of the week. The only reason im looking into Supercharging for more power on the K6 is simply for what its used for (work and back, towing) i'd rather have the mid range. If it was something i wanted to throw around and use in a different way it would have a built NA engine. I completely agree with you lot, most of the time gear selection is the downfall. I am really going to look into using a 6spd gearbox from something else FWD with use of an adapter plate. Im not sure... i really want to play with the 190 because of how much i love the thing. Just seems every avenue is a road no ones walked down before. Probably because most are happy enough with how it is, but me i like to play around too much haha! Also... the Audi isnt modern, it isnt even commonrail its 1999.... also has 228k miles on it. So it should be slower than my 190... maybe its just aged well? like a fine whiskey? __________________ http://i66.tinypic.com/5cd6xj.jpg

11th August 2016, 08:25	#117
TomRS Posted a thing or two Mk1 ZT 190 - Mk2 ZS 180 - Mercedes E63 AMG S - Ford Ranger Hawk Join Date: Mar 2016 Location: Middlesbrough Posts: 1,456 Thanks: 123 Thanked 409 Times in 281 Posts	Good website that... keeping me entertained reading it. I think the best thing i can do is buy a spare KV6 and start playing with building it. Question is do i go with a 2 litre or a 2.5? I'd really like to get something started but it wont be until the winter months as i genuinely am a little skint after buying that other Accord. __________________ http://i66.tinypic.com/5cd6xj.jpg

9th August 2016, 10:14	#112
maxi_crawf Posted a thing or two R75 Saloon Conn CDT SE, MG ZT190+ Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kingston-upon-Hull Posts: 1,960 Thanks: 823 Thanked 426 Times in 274 Posts	Well I know I'm no expert and I can only go by practical experience but I agree with some of the comments by Elliot, I've now had the same Conny cdt for 10 years and got used to the way it runs, in March I bought a 190 (call it mid-life crisis ) and even now I still occasionally drive it like a Diesel, keeping the revs down and changing up the gears too early, and conversely going down the gears too late, but I'll get there, but when I use the engine as it's supposed to be used, well that's a different story I told some of the members (and you know who you are) that when I collected it and drove back home at 60 they were almost crying with laughter

9th August 2016, 12:43	#113
minimutly Posted a thing or two mg zt Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: cardigan Posts: 1,087 Thanks: 28 Thanked 187 Times in 158 Posts	Usually when I get left behind by a turbo diesel family car, a look down at my rev counter reveals less than 4k revs. Wrong gear, simple as that. The diesel torque is way lower than the kv6, and if driven lazily will allways be quicker, so yes, a modern TD will allways be quicker off the mark. Part of the difference is in the way the td gets to its rev limit - its low ish revs, quiet (inside at least). Whereas the v6 is howling at peak revs, and sounds fantastic btw.

9th August 2016, 13:59	#114
maxi_crawf Posted a thing or two R75 Saloon Conn CDT SE, MG ZT190+ Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Kingston-upon-Hull Posts: 1,960 Thanks: 823 Thanked 426 Times in 274 Posts	I agree, when you give it the revs and 'stir the pudding' (as intended) it sounds marvellous, especially after I had a stainless cat back mid sporting system fitted when I was asked what I wanted (Tony Banks) I said that I wanted a bit more of that V6 letting out but not to 'P' off the neighbours, he looked at me, smiled and said 'I know what you need' and he was right on the button as far as I'm concerned.