Try to help but get told to pay traders fees?

[LotusLC]

Originally Posted by stevestrat

I did the map to help everyone not to start a debate about fees Dave. I feel very disappointed in this outcome, it has put me as "piggy in the middle" which I can quite happily live without.

I can understand why your getting fed up , but please reconsider putting the map back as it's a brilliant idea, and I guess a lot of time doing it.

[paul d]

I thought what Steve did with the T4 map was admirable & deserves congratulations for doing it but as he says if he becomes piggy in the middle then it's not fair.

With regard to Traders fees in general, I think if you are providing a service/breaking cars/supplying parts on a regular basis then yes you pa a fee, as you would for any advertising.

However if your own car comes to the end of it's life & you want to strip it/break it & offer the parts you don't want for sale to help members out then that shouldn't incur a fee as it's a one off.

It can't be to hard surely to monitor to make sure someone is not abusing that.

Regards

Paul

[stevestrat]

OK guys (and gals), I can see how much the map was appreciated and it will be available in a few minutes. I did it for everybody but didn't like the situation it ended up putting me in.

[stevestrat]

T4 Location Map

[clf]

Originally Posted by stevestrat

T4 Location Map

Thank you for reinstating this map, Steve. I am not sure I will use or need it, however it is obvious others will, and for your effort (and I know it isnt a five minute task) to help all, I applaud and thank you for it.

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In terms of being a trader or not, I have always had the view that if you had the opportunity to receive payment of any kind for a service (ie not goods) and advertised that service (even just as a 'to help out') that it should fall under trader terms.

I take this view as it puts it into a black and white situation for the owners/moderators, and creates as level a playing field for all T4 service providers. Going this way, hopefully it will stop the calling out of innocent 'helpers' from 'making money' (the opposite is true too, of those who 'cheat' the system from trading substantially from not paying for advertising). There are three levels to accommodate for such situations.

Perhaps, though, there could be a fourth level? One which is for those who wish to help, with no obligation to pay, (except maybe for fuel costs?). With this, comes a blanket 'at your own risk' disclaimer. If people providing this service, demand payment, then it wouldnt be long before complaints are raised. Plus those who wish not to take the chance of bricking their car, they would still have proper traders with their associated insurances and responsibilities?

As far as selling goods, I think it normally becomes obvious to all, the difference between selling to clear out a garage or shed, to those who are trying to make a few quid from breaking a car they have bought on the cheap (which is not a bad thing I stress to add, but why should the forum provide a free platform for advertising such enterprise?). And even those selling 'to clear out' should at least pay the annual member subscription, as a classified ad in a paper etc costs, even free ads cost indirectly (advertising revenue, cookies etc - facebook, gumtree, or listing and final fees - ebay)

[suzublu]

Just for information....

We are keen to ensure that the ability to buy and sell items is as easy and convenient as possible to all people who frequent the club, so anyone can view the For Sale & Wanted sections. However, due to continued abuse by opportunists and profiteers there are some important points with which you are required to comply.

14.1 Use of the For sale section is for Subscribed Members and Subscribed Traders only. If you wish to advertise an item in this section you are required to subscribe as a member or Trader. To do this, click on the Subscribe button at the top of any forum page (Potential Traders need to contact a Moderator first via PM or the Contact Us button for full instructions and options). The club cannot be held liable for any adverts published for the sale of goods and or services, either by members or by any other organisation

Members listing allowance
Subscribed members = unlimited items per month *subject to a fair use policy
Unsubscribed members = 0 items per month
Subscribed traders = unlimited items per month

Fair Use Policy
Whilst we are keen to see members help fellow members by placing their unwanted items in the for sale section, the unlimited allowance of items for Red Subscribed members will be subject to a fair use policy. This refers to any member who repeatedly uses these forums exclusively for the listing of goods or services and little else.

In such cases, posting history will be reviewed and a judgement made on whether a particular member is just using our boards as a business platform to turn a profit. In such cases a trader subscription will be required, or listed items will be removed and additional steps taken.

This rule has had to be introduced in order to protect the value of the trading subscription on our boards for those who pay a premium to make a living here and in so doing, help to support the club in meeting it's financial liabilities.

14.2 Items posted for sale must carry the asking price. Asking for offers is not allowed. However, the only exception to this rule is when selling a vehicle as a whole, then the use of ONO or OVNO is permissible, as this is acceptable practice when selling cars

[Reebs]

Answers on this thread have already hit the nail on the head. Firstly Stevestrat is to be commended for taking on the T4 location map, it’s a valuable resource without a doubt. But as has been said and we have been here several times before, this is a can of worms that has reared its ugly head before. The two crucial points are that 1) while you are not charging for the use of your T4 for others, you are immediately taking customers away from those who have bought a full T4 system at huge cost and are reliant on it to pay for itself.

I have had first hand experience of this happening reported to me by one of our T4 traders in the past, so it is a fact. So one then thinks, we’ll why have a traders subscription at all then? Then the problem goes away right? Well as you can see from looking at our membership, the vast majority of members do not subscribe for £10 a year (who’s names then go red) it’s a voluntary, not compulsory subscription and everyone is at liberty to use the club forums totally for free, but there are constant overheads to meet, hosting fees, domain names, public liability insurance to pay for, National Meet costs for location hire, fridge magnet mementos, club signage etc.

All this needs covering on a continuous basis and our very few traders fees really help to off set the lack of standard subscriptions we get.

2) While many folk may now own their own T4, there is a huge variation in knowledge base between users and with no public liability cover or warranty for any work under taken, they leave themselves, the club and their members cars open to blame when and if problems arise whilst reprogramming or diagnostics are under taken.

There is no one simple answer to this dilemma, and there has been much blood on the dance floor in years gone by in trying to achieve a workable arrangement that suits all.

Please also bear in mind that the minimum traders fee required by the club for this is the Bronze subscription that is just £8.34 a month which can be taken up and cancelled on a month by month basis. When I last looked, the local ex-MG rover garage still charged £50 per hour for a T4 session, as far as I’m aware I don’t believe any of our club traders charge that price for a health check or dealer option enabling.

I hope that goes a part of the way to illustrating the dilemma from the other perspective. But please don’t blame stevestrat for his very best intentions and it’s to be commended that he sought out the club first before attempting to add T4 owners names on the list.

[paul d]

Having taken a break from the forum, being a paid up member prior to that, I thought I'd see what it was like before paying again. When I was considering what to do with MY car of 4+ years, not one I'd bought to break. I thought, pay the subs & give members first chance on stuff by using the members parts for sale section & at a lower price.

Then I get told by a Mod that to do that I have to pay traders fees, contrary to what has been said.

It would appear Left & Right hands are not In communication.

No wonder fewer people pay subs.

Paul

[trikey]

Personally, I think the forum should be a £10 subscription before entry thing.

What's £10 these days, if the £10 paid, answers one technical question then its money well spent.

The funds could be used to get some 'unobtainium' parts remade, much like the triumph an MG Owners clubs do.

[tantallon]

Originally Posted by trikey

Personally, I think the forum should be a £10 subscription before entry thing.

What's £10 these days, if the £10 paid, answers one technical question then its money well spent.

The funds could be used to get some 'unobtainium' parts remade, much like the triumph an MG Owners clubs do.

Agree entirely .I just cannot see what we get from "club" owners for our money .All the assistance we get is from fellow members and traders such as yourself.So where does the money go .If it is a "club "We as members should know