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Old 6th April 2022, 21:46   #41
COLVERT
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Originally Posted by polinsteve View Post
I'm one of these useless drivers in the teaching trade and quite frankly I find your comment insulting and unnecessary.
I was certified by the then Bus and Coach council as a PSV instructor. My on road assessment was marked as excellent, my on road teaching assessment was also marked as excellent. In the theoretical tests I was the 1st candidate to score 100%. I was also elected as a commercial member of the IAM and trained other drivers to IAM standards and achieved a 100% pass rate for the IAM test. Furthermore I have my C&G in PSV driving instruction.
Over the years I have also attended many courses to maintain, improve and update my skills.
I think it fair to say that after a successful driver training career lasting some 30 years that although I've never obtained the accolade of being a perfect driver or trainer, I have in that time helped many people learn how to drive to very high standards. What I and any other trainer cannot do is dictate how people will drive in the future.
Careful not to injure yourself when giving yourself such a hardy pat on the back.---
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Old 7th April 2022, 13:24   #42
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OMG if you question him he will only get upset, perhaps even go to insults. He only likes people who agree with him and tell him how wonderful he is

macafee2
Spot on. I criticised his take on an "unprofessional" bus driver who admittedly had pulled out a bit close to a cyclist. The situation was in outer London where vision was poor to the right. It could be seen in the video that the sun was very low and going by shadows, immediately in the drivers eyeline. I politely pointed out the scenario, especially the low sun which would have been made worse by the door glass and secondly by the assault screen. Add that to wide the safety rubbers on the door and the other poor off side vision, it made the junction very tricky. However, with his newly gained HGV licence, he considers himself a faultless expert on commercials as well. He is nauseatingly smug!
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Old 7th April 2022, 13:49   #43
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Hi Steve,

As a trained driving instructor, could I ask your opinion on this situation please?

I am on an 'A' or 'B' road travelling at 40 or 50 mph in 4th gear (the exact speed isn't really relevant). The driver in front of me signals an intended right turn and begins to slow. I brake gently and, at the appropriate speed, change down to 3rd, this being the old fashioned method. Our vehicles' speeds reduce a little more then something unexpected happens. The driver in front cancels the right turn indication and accelerates away briskly. I am in the correct gear to do likewise.

With the modern method, wouldn't I be taught to assume that the driver in front would be stopping before the right turn and so I should brake but remain in 4th gear until the last minute, then change into 2nd (or even first) in order to drive on? But the driver in front didn't stop, so with 4th gear still selected I would be in the wrong gear for the changed circumstances. My acceleration would be desperately slow probably with uncomfortable vibration. I would naturally then wish to engage a lower gear but which one? I would have to make a hurried decision and a less than smooth change because a large increase in engine revs would be necessary.

I'm sorry, I disagree fundamentally with the modern method of not changing down through the gearbox. In my experience it offers no advantage and several disadvantages over the existing well proven technique.

Simon
Having been taught the old way and also trained drivers on the modern method, the new method is easier and more effective.
In the scenario you present, assuming you keep a decent safety gap, your approach to the hazard is good, i.e. observation, assessment and action, (light use of your brakes).
Now the big but! The time to check around you is no less than the time to do a block change to a lower gear. The advantages are: Your foot is in the right place (over the brake) for a slowing moving hazard and secondly, once the other car accelerates past the junction you can then select the appropriate gear. Rapid acceleration would be unwise. My thought process would be, why has the driver changed his mind and also, does that mean that they will slow down and turn into the next road or premises. With respect to that, I would hold back and wait to see what transpired. Also, going by your comment you drive pretty well to the old methods. Does that mean that when changing down you blip the throttle to synchronise the engine/gearbox and road speed? I know I do. If that is the case, your foot could well be off the brakes and on the gas at a critical time.
That reminds me of a trainee many years ago, training in a crashbox double decker. He was a nightmare to train, heavy footed and always thought he new best. When he failed his test to no-ones surprise except his own, he demanded an examiners report. Which was so typical of the trainees driving. The examiner reported, "On the approach to a steep downhill T junction, the driver attempted to change from 3rd gear to 2nd. The vehicle gained speed alarmingly and eventually with a horrendous crashing of gears the driver succeeded in engaging the gear before coming to a fast and abrupt stop".
A classic case of a foot in the wrong place and changing gear at the wrong time.
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Old 7th April 2022, 13:55   #44
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Spot on. I criticised his take on an "unprofessional" bus driver who admittedly had pulled out a bit close to a cyclist. The situation was in outer London where vision was poor to the right. It could be seen in the video that the sun was very low and going by shadows, immediately in the drivers eyeline. I politely pointed out the scenario, especially the low sun which would have been made worse by the door glass and secondly by the assault screen. Add that to wide the safety rubbers on the door and the other poor off side vision, it made the junction very tricky. However, with his newly gained HGV licence, he considers himself a faultless expert on commercials as well. He is nauseatingly smug!
I think you may find, sometime in the past while turning left he knocked a cyclist off, don't quote me but that is what I vaguely recall.

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Old 7th April 2022, 13:56   #45
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Careful not to injure yourself when giving yourself such a hardy pat on the back.---
I am proud of my achievements and training career, achievements I worked hard to earn. I am not impressed when someone makes insulting blanket observations and I feel justified in calling him out on it. As with any job, no-one is perfect and some shame their chosen career. He should criticise the individual, not the profession.
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Old 7th April 2022, 13:57   #46
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I think you may find, sometime in the past while turning left he knocked a cyclist off, don't quote me but that is what I vaguely recall.

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Probably watching his face in the mirror.
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Old 7th April 2022, 19:34   #47
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... going by your comment you drive pretty well to the old methods. Does that mean that when changing down you blip the throttle to synchronise the engine/gearbox and road speed?
Hi Steve,

I would do that if I was changing down without braking because I wanted better vehicle control or was anticipating brisk acceleration. Conversely, if I was braking I wouldn't blip the throttle as I'm seeking to use engine braking to assist my retardation.
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The advantages are: Your foot is in the right place (over the brake) for a slowing moving hazard and secondly, once the other car accelerates past the junction you can then select the appropriate gear.
I don't see that as an advantage of the modern teaching method. My foot will be in the right place (over the brake) but crucially I will already be in the appropriate gear when the other car accelerates past the junction whilst you will be engaged in a thought process of what to do next.
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My thought process would be, why has the driver changed his mind and also, does that mean that they will slow down and turn into the next road or premises.
That's a good point Steve. The driver changed his/her mind because the road on the right was not the route required after all. We've all done it haven't we. I absolutely agree that I should then be anticipating a further attempt to turn right and so I should not accelerate quickly. However that is no reason NOT to change down through the gearbox! I am in the correct gear for maximum vehicle control so I am ready to both come to a standstill (if the driver in front turns right) or to continue under controlled acceleration (if the other driver does likewise). It seems to me that the modern method would place me in a situation of complete indecision until the scenario plays out in front of me. With the traditional method I am already prepared for whatever may happen.

The modern world does not appreciate that some things work well because they are the best way of dealing with a situation that has been correctly assessed and no changes are desirable or necessary.

Simon
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Old 8th April 2022, 08:45   #48
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Hi Steve,

I would do that if I was changing down without braking because I wanted better vehicle control or was anticipating brisk acceleration. Conversely, if I was braking I wouldn't blip the throttle as I'm seeking to use engine braking to assist my retardation.

I don't see that as an advantage of the modern teaching method. My foot will be in the right place (over the brake) but crucially I will already be in the appropriate gear when the other car accelerates past the junction whilst you will be engaged in a thought process of what to do next.

That's a good point Steve. The driver changed his/her mind because the road on the right was not the route required after all. We've all done it haven't we. I absolutely agree that I should then be anticipating a further attempt to turn right and so I should not accelerate quickly. However that is no reason NOT to change down through the gearbox! I am in the correct gear for maximum vehicle control so I am ready to both come to a standstill (if the driver in front turns right) or to continue under controlled acceleration (if the other driver does likewise). It seems to me that the modern method would place me in a situation of complete indecision until the scenario plays out in front of me. With the traditional method I am already prepared for whatever may happen.

The modern world does not appreciate that some things work well because they are the best way of dealing with a situation that has been correctly assessed and no changes are desirable or necessary.

Simon
I think you are doing yourself an injustice. You certainly don't sound indecisive! What it really comes down to, is just different styles of driving. I prefer the "new" style and find it works very well. You drive in the older style which obviously works for you. I think what you and I want is just safe driving and there is nothing to make either method less safe. The only real issue would be if you retook your driving test as you would be marked down for use of gears, but that is really just pedantises.
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Old 8th April 2022, 23:36   #49
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Originally Posted by polinsteve View Post
I'm one of these useless drivers in the teaching trade and quite frankly I find your comment insulting and unnecessary.
I was certified by the then Bus and Coach council as a PSV instructor. My on road assessment was marked as excellent, my on road teaching assessment was also marked as excellent. In the theoretical tests I was the 1st candidate to score 100%. I was also elected as a commercial member of the IAM and trained other drivers to IAM standards and achieved a 100% pass rate for the IAM test. Furthermore I have my C&G in PSV driving instruction.
Over the years I have also attended many courses to maintain, improve and update my skills.
I think it fair to say that after a successful driver training career lasting some 30 years that although I've never obtained the accolade of being a perfect driver or trainer, I have in that time helped many people learn how to drive to very high standards. What I and any other trainer cannot do is dictate how people will drive in the future.
I can only speak from my own experience Stephen. We get ‘learners ‘ being taught to drive outside our house. They use the grove opposite to reverse into .Where my computer is, upstairs, I used to sometimes watch these learners reversing.Can you tell me why twice I have seen different cars reversing round the entrance to the grove, and they have been allowed to mount the gutter on the drivers side, one nearly hitting the wall around the garden. Can you also explain to me why, when I had pulled up behind a learner that was to all intents and purposes parked at the side of the road. I was not right in line but sticking out about halfway behind it because there are parked cars in the road, with my right hand indicator flashing, waiting for the car that was coming down the road towards me, before checking in my mirror and pulling out once the car had gone past. As I started to pull out, with no signal from the learners car, it began pulling out in front of me. He pulled out and stopped by the side of the car in front of it. I sat there for a bit, and then I sounded my horn to attract their attention, and I was signalled to pull out and go round the learner. How I was going to do that when there was not enough room to get past because of the width of the road? In the end I had to get out and went to the passenger side and asked the so called teacher how I was going to get past, and why did you not teach the learner driver to use his mirror before moving off. The answer was ‘well he probably did not see you were there’. The ‘teacher’ told me he would take my number and report me to the DVLA for ‘disrupting a learner driver during his driving test’. I said ‘good, because I have it on camera if you care to look at the front windscreen’. I took the number of the car, and reported him to the company that was denoted on the car. Never had a reply, and never had any communication from the DVLA. I could give you a few more incidents I have observed, including one accident when the learner did not stop properly at cross road. I don’t say all teachers are as useless, but believe me, I could almost write a book. By the way, are all cars that are owned by Teaching Establishments supposed to have dual control pedals?
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Old 9th April 2022, 00:11   #50
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Hi again Stephen. Sorry you feel that I am running down all people who teach people to drive. Just facts as they are observed by myself. I will not be drawn into how good I am at anything, just to say that having during my working life covering over a million miles, and observation being the one thing that surpassed anything else on the road.During that 47 years I think I picked up enough hints on how to drive on the crowded roads of this country and abroad. Have a little read of my post above this one, and you may find out where I am coming from. And with regards to the changing down through the gears, when you have 38 tons behind you, and no brakes, you then know why you were taught to change down through the gears. Two speed axle and all the others. Food for thought eh.
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