160 Remap - pros (and cons?)

[Jamiewelch]

Originally Posted by suzublu

Just found this from a few years ago

Thread here https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...d.php?t=129619

Something definitely not right with that 170bhp run. The stock turbo can’t produce enough air for that power, you need a larger turbo for it. But it’s an excel spreadsheet with information entered, as soon as I saw 170bhp out of a stock turbo I can’t believe those numbers. No impressive torque numbers though, I can get around 430nm of torque out of a diesel. Those maps wouldn’t feel significantly different to stock.

I’d like to see that 170bhp diesel on a properly calibrated dyno. A dyno can be tweaked to give higher numbers if needed, it’s results are only as good as it’s calibration.

Anyone fancy a free dyno run? The offer is there for anyone with a 160 mapped car as long as the results can be posted, and you get a free printout of your power

[BigRuss]

IIRC Hodgy's car the one reported at 170, had an absolutely horrible map on it not one of ours it smoked very badly too.

I drove it and it was more than a little rough.

It did have one or two tweaks to the turbo operation but can't remember exactly what, I've slept a bit since then I think he was also running a Synergy as well as the map.

I wasn't there but he might just have got 170, after all Jakg did with a similar setup as did Johndotcom with their cars

Russ

[Mickyboy]

Originally Posted by Jamiewelch

Something definitely not right with that 170bhp run. The stock turbo can’t produce enough air for that power, you need a larger turbo for it. But it’s an excel spreadsheet with information entered, as soon as I saw 170bhp out of a stock turbo I can’t believe those numbers. No impressive torque numbers though, I can get around 430nm of torque out of a diesel. Those maps wouldn’t feel significantly different to stock.

I’d like to see that 170bhp diesel on a properly calibrated dyno. A dyno can be tweaked to give higher numbers if needed, it’s results are only as good as it’s calibration.

Anyone fancy a free dyno run? The offer is there for anyone with a 160 mapped car as long as the results can be posted, and you get a free printout of your power

Jamiewelch

“ I can get around 430nm of torque out of a diesel.”

Not out of a standard CDTI clutch you won’t, just not going to happen, I’m not going to argue because when you know you know.
Mick

[BigRuss]

Thanks for that was going to say something similar, there's no way on the planet can you get 430nm out of a standard clutch.

The clampling forces on the clutch are far far less than that

If you're going to come out with numbers at least come out with something credible.

Russ

[Jamiewelch]

Originally Posted by BigRuss

Thanks for that was going to say something similar, there's no way on the planet can you get 430nm out of a standard clutch.

The clampling forces on the clutch are far far less than that

If you're going to come out with numbers at least come out with something credible.

Russ

I'm not sure what clutches you guys have been fitting, but a decent clutch will definitely handle it. Below is a printout from a proper dyno, not an "OBD dyno" that Rob Drinkwater used. We can put a 160 mapped car on the same dyno if anyone wants a run? I've blanked the car owners details from the photo. Torque is in lbft and Power is in HP.

You can see how the power line is very smooth and it is very straight, this is what happens with a stock turbo at 24psi, it just can't get enough air in there for the power to go any higher.

[BigRuss]

Jamie you really don't have a clue, do you?
It's not a case of what clutch is fitted, you cannot exceed the physical properties of the clutch.
A particular clutch can only take a certain amount of power based on the diameter, surface area, and friction material of the clutch along with clamping load from the pressure plate.
You can look these up if you want all the information is available.
Beyond the specified limits the additional power at first causes micro slippage but this quickly accelerates to destruction of the clutch.
That torque figure is also beyond the capabilities of both the Getrag and Jatco gearboxes.

Rob Drinkwater found that out when he destroyed the transmission shaft on his car.

By the way before you criticize Rob you should really should look up who he is and what his achievements are

Russ

[Jamiewelch]

Originally Posted by BigRuss

Jamie you really don't have a clue, do you?
It's not a case of what clutch is fitted, you cannot exceed the physical properties of the clutch.
A particular clutch can only take a certain amount of power based on the diameter, surface area, and friction material of the clutch along with clamping load from the pressure plate.
You can look these up if you want all the information is available.
Beyond the specified limits the additional power at first causes micro slippage but this quickly accelerates to destruction of the clutch.
That torque figure is also beyond the capabilities of both the Getrag and Jatco gearboxes.

Rob Drinkwater found that out when he destroyed the transmission shaft on his car.

By the way before you criticize Rob you should really should look up who he is and what his achievements are

Russ

Just because your map can't achieve the torque values, there is no need to talk down the opposition.

You should ask people who have gone from the 160 to a much more torquey map. As you can see from the graph, that is peak torque and doesn't run at 300lbft+ all the time.

I have posted a dyno run proof of the results, much more than anyone has done for the 160 map. My numbers are more credible than an excel sheet and a video of people sat on a car to keep it on the dyno...

I've spoken to Rob on Facebook, he is adamant that an OBD reading will give accurate numbers, even when a gear change is done in the middle of it...

Why is it that people here have never trusted something new? Ever since I have tried to offer something on here people always moan and say to go to one of the T4 guys. When you guys eventually leave there will be no one left if anyone new gets pushed out.

[BigRuss]

Originally Posted by marinabrian

So can I ask, was your map based upon a standard NNW5991 tune then Jamie, or piggybacked?


Now that I'd be interested in seeing for myself




Yes it would Alf

I can explain why too

The outer diameter of the standard CDTi clutch is 228mm, the inner diameter is 150mm, and the friction coefficient of the driven plate 0.25 with an axial clamping load of 6600N provided by the pressure plate.

This means the calculated maximum torque rating of the clutch is 370Nm or 273 ft/lb

These final output figures were obtained during several dyno runs at Ron Perry A19 Test & Tune nr. Hartlepool in 2012

Automatic car 159.4 BHP peak torque 359Nm

Manual car 157.9 BHP peak torque 345Nm


There are minor variations between non EOBD and EOBD compliant cars, but these are minor.

When the fuelling was increased to the point where the turbocharger was unable to supply sufficient air charge to completely combust the injected fuel, then the clutch in the manual test car began to slip.

The mean figures were arrived at as there was the desirability to improve the standard driveability of the car while maintaining reliability, rather than any other aim

I still have some of the beta tunes and one of the development variants of the NNN500340 manual tunes produced just shy of 163 BHP and peaked out at 390Nm, however it was very smoky and could certainly provoke slipping of the clutch under harsh acceleration.

As Russ pointed out previously that power output with a couple of minor mechanical modifications can place figures close to 180BHP, however as I said previously, the main aim was to improve driveability in otherwise standard cars, but not at the expense of reliability.

The torque output of the automatic version is higher than the manual, as the safe limits of the Jatco autobox allow this.

I see you are not that far from me, once the current restrictions are relaxed, if you wish to pop over to my place I'll let you take my car for a spin and see how it compares to yours



Brian

Thanks for the accurate figures Brian, my guesses on them were pretty good

Russ

[Jamiewelch]

Originally Posted by marinabrian

So can I ask, was your map based upon a standard NNW5991 tune then Jamie, or piggybacked?


Now that I'd be interested in seeing for myself




Yes it would Alf

I can explain why too

The outer diameter of the standard CDTi clutch is 228mm, the inner diameter is 150mm, and the friction coefficient of the driven plate 0.25 with an axial clamping load of 6600N provided by the pressure plate.

This means the calculated maximum torque rating of the clutch is 370Nm or 273 ft/lb

These final output figures were obtained during several dyno runs at Ron Perry A19 Test & Tune nr. Hartlepool in 2012

Automatic car 159.4 BHP peak torque 359Nm

Manual car 157.9 BHP peak torque 345Nm


There are minor variations between non EOBD and EOBD compliant cars, but these are minor.

When the fuelling was increased to the point where the turbocharger was unable to supply sufficient air charge to completely combust the injected fuel, then the clutch in the manual test car began to slip.

The mean figures were arrived at as there was the desirability to improve the standard driveability of the car while maintaining reliability, rather than any other aim

I still have some of the beta tunes and one of the development variants of the NNN500340 manual tunes produced just shy of 163 BHP and peaked out at 390Nm, however it was very smoky and could certainly provoke slipping of the clutch under harsh acceleration.

As Russ pointed out previously that power output with a couple of minor mechanical modifications can place figures close to 180BHP, however as I said previously, the main aim was to improve driveability in otherwise standard cars, but not at the expense of reliability.

The torque output of the automatic version is higher than the manual, as the safe limits of the Jatco autobox allow this.

I see you are not that far from me, once the current restrictions are relaxed, if you wish to pop over to my place I'll let you take my car for a spin and see how it compares to yours



Brian

Car returned to stock with a T4 to NNW005991 then done from scratch.

Not much of a torque increase, you'd barely feel it. 390nm on the other hand, that would be much more like the numbers I would have liked to have seen.

On the smokey car with 390nm I assume the manifold, egr and intercooler were spotless? That is normally what causes the excess smoke providing there are no boost leaks, there shouldn't really be much smoke if its all in good order.

I'd like to see a car run 180bhp with a stock turbo and stock fuel system.

When restrictions are reduced Brian, how would you feel if we tried one of my maps on your car and you can see for yourself? As I know any car of yours will be looked after and in good mechanical condition. You may be impressed, it might not be the map for everyone, but you're welcome to give it a try.

[BigRuss]

Originally Posted by Jamiewelch

Just because your map can't achieve the torque values, there is no need to talk down the opposition.

You should ask people who have gone from the 160 to a much more torquey map. As you can see from the graph, that is peak torque and doesn't run at 300lbft+ all the time.

I have posted a dyno run proof of the results, much more than anyone has done for the 160 map. My numbers are more credible than an excel sheet and a video of people sat on a car to keep it on the dyno...

I've spoken to Rob on Facebook, he is adamant that an OBD reading will give accurate numbers, even when a gear change is done in the middle of it...

Why is it that people here have never trusted something new? Ever since I have tried to offer something on here people always moan and say to go to one of the T4 guys. When you guys eventually leave there will be no one left if anyone new gets pushed out.

We have plenty of maps that are higher output than the ones we provide for the "160" remap the reason we didn't go higher is to keep the torque settings at a level that would minimise the effects on the clutch and transmission.

In what way is pointing out the fact that at the torque figures you're talking about they could definitely cause premature clutch failure could be described as talking down the opposition.

Running 300ft/lbs+ even for short periods will induce minute slippage that will have a detrimental effect that will exacerbate wear.

If people are happy to prematurely change clutches or transmissions by running maps at that level then fair enough but I know most people would rather not have to do that.

Jamie you're not doing or offering anything new, it's all been done before.
In fact all the stuff you're advertising in your signature is because of other people's hard work, who spent an awful lot of time and money to discover how to do these things.
You then have the cheek to put down those people's services and promote your own.

Russ