Brexit. !!

[stevenicks]

Originally Posted by grivas

Couldn't agree more, this is a car forum and not political one, except whilst we are here I would say this, Brexit if and when it does takes place will turn out to be the single most moronic political decision taken by any government simply to satisfy the decision of a small majority of ill-informed people brain washed by politically inept individuals, so as to satisfy their own goals. A complete catastrophy in the making, just sit back and watch it all unwind.....cutting off nose to spite face comes to mind..

Yea right, you are just a sore loser. Get used to the fact that the EU will soon be a thing of the past, thank God

[stevenicks]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

So - you want to have your say - but you would rather others didn't

Whilst I think Brexit should be debated in Parliament - I also believe that the will of the people should be abided by.

Calling people who have a different opinion than you "ill-informed" and "brain washed", is not a political statement - it is a rude verbal irrelevance from someone who would do well to consider "Pot Kettle Black".

It is such rudeness and intolerance of others valid views that should, itself, not be tolerated on this Forum.

Having a differing view is part of life.

I have seen as much if not more heated debate re K Series vs. M47R

It is a shame that some on here seem to accept and "Thank" a political view from one "side" but as soon as their views are put under more scrutiny than they feel comfortable with - up goes the drawbridge.

I am minded of Arthur Scargill's famous statement "Don't confuse me with the facts - my mind is made up"

Well said that man

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by andymc

I'm not sure how you think NI seems to be well pleased with Brexit overall.

The DUP are in favour of it, being as they are the party most ideologically inclined towards anything which would widen any divisions between NI and the south. But there certainly hasn't been some large shift towards support for it here - the opposite, if anything, as the refusal to guarantee more than a few years of matching the EU-provided financial support on which farming, peace projects etc depend paints a stark picture of how the future will look for the biggest sectors of the NI economy and for one of the key underpinnings of the peace settlement.

The greatest problem from my perspective is that by far the biggest volume of trade for NI is cross-border, and this is fundamentally threatened by Brexit. As for the proposal that UK customs (and immigration?) could end up being located in the Republic of Ireland, so as to avoid having a "hard" border, I can't see it being workable - and it certainly runs contrary to the much-vaunted principle of "take back control".

NB citizens of NI already had the "dual" passporting right before the referendum, so in terms of freedom of movement, nothing has changed or will in that regard. However, should reciprocal healthcare arrangements between UK and EU be removed, people from NI will still lose out in the same way as those in GB.

I take your point - but I feel you are missing the point in two key areas at least.

1) NI does receive a substantial amount of EU support and yes this would make those in receipt of such money more keen to vote to stay than those in say, England - who genuinely feel that they contribute far more to the EU than they get back. I am not trying to split hairs here - i am seriously trying to state it as it is.

2) "NB citizens of NI already had the "dual" passporting right before the referendum, so in terms of freedom of movement, nothing has changed or will in that regard."

This really does miss the point totally - because post Brexit, the rest of the UK will NOT have the rights of EU citizens - whereas those who have duel UK Eire passports will be able to chose.

So whereas now as a UK EU citizen I can go through EU passport control when I travel in Europe, post Brexit I will not be able to do this. I will have to go through passport control alongside our cousins from the USA, Canada and Australia etc.

Whereas a NI citizen can do as I do if they wish via their UK passport or, they can use their Eire passport and travel about Europe as EU citizens.

Currently with the UK being in the EU, the fact that NI citizens can have duel passports for two individual EU member states is an interesting anomaly.

Post Brexit this anomaly could prove to be an extremely valuable and useful quirk in the system for NI and NI citizens. Something that I think will be uniques across the 27 member states of the EU.

A foot in both camps.

As I say - not especially relevant now as both camps are EU member states.

But Post Brexit ?????

Interesting........and as I understand it NI citizens are well aware and well pleased with the dual passport system they will have available to them.

As regards NI no longer being able to get EU grant money - well no - those in receipt of it will be a bit miffed I am sure. Just as those of us in the rest of the UK that historically contributed far more to the EU than they ever got back in return will be pleased that we will have less of a fiscal burden by way of supporting 27 member states.

Both Scotland and NI have to now consider how they fit into a UK that is no longer a part of the EU that demanded huge sums from the UK and then distributed these sums across the 28 member states - some of this money went to regions of the UK certainly. As I say - NI citizens will have a unique status within the EU and a future separate UK

But it is fair to say that those regions that contributed the most got very little back. That is why the vote in England and Wales was so demonstrably in favour of Brexit. The top five areas that voted "Out" voted out by a majority between 70% and 75%.

Truly substantial figures.

[Borg Warner]

Meanwhile these two women are being confused:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics...f-online-abuse

and

http://news.sky.com/story/gina-mille...uling-10644865

With vicious threats being made against both them, from the ignorant and ill-informed.

What have we overtly become? A divided and hateful nation that is for sure. Oh for a time machine so we could go back and not let some power hungry politician drag us into the state that we now find ourselves.

I'm tempted to say God help us, but I really don't want get religion involved - that would be a toxic mix - politics and religion.

[mbev51]

I was so relieved at the verdict, I also believe the Supreme Court will maintain the ruling. The government needs to be reminded of the supremacy of parliament. I thought the headline in the mail was ridiculous branding the three judges as enemies of the people. It's the gutter press and generations of poor politicians that have got us in this mess. Everybody needs to act responsibly from now on or civil unrest could brake out. Theresa May is living in cloud cuckoo land, how can she make the promises of access to the free market to Nissan and why not just accept the judges ruling and work with Parliament to formulate the best brexit deal ASAP rather than delay it. This whole sad episode could descend into absolute chaos. Even I have accepted that some sort of Brexit will happen as I think have most of the MPs.

[andymc]

Originally Posted by Darcydog

I take your point - but I feel you are missing the point in two key areas at least.

1) NI does receive a substantial amount of EU support and yes this would make those in receipt of such money more keen to vote to stay than those in say, England - who genuinely feel that they contribute far more to the EU than they get back. I am not trying to split hairs here - i am seriously trying to state it as it is.

Two thoughts on reading that. Firstly, of course it would be sensible to prefer that hard-won gains, not only economically but also socially and politically, should not be threatened or indeed reversed by the decisions of people not directly affected by their loss.

Secondly, your choice of words is interesting - that people in England "feel" they contribute "far more" to the EU than they get back. I do get the impression alright that when it comes to important decisions, forming world-view etc, feelings often take precedence over facts these days - although as an aside, I would make the observation that it wouldn't be all that unreasonable for what was, pre-referendum, expected to be the fourth largest economy in the world (now sixth-largest) to be a net contributor to a common trading bloc. A rising tide lifts all boats & all that.

However, in my initial response to you I wasn't making that point - it wasn't my intention to rehash Remain vs Leave arguments when the vote has been cast.

Originally Posted by Darcydog

2) "NB citizens of NI already had the "dual" passporting right before the referendum, so in terms of freedom of movement, nothing has changed or will in that regard."

This really does miss the point totally - because post Brexit, the rest of the UK will NOT have the rights of EU citizens - whereas those who have duel UK Eire passports will be able to chose.

Perhaps the point you were trying to make wasn't that clear. Your comment seemed to indicate an opinion that people in NI had generally come round to supporting the Brexit vote, and that dual passporting was a significant reason for this. Specifically -

"However NI seems to be, overall, now well pleased with Brexit seeing as how any NI citizen will have the best of both worlds."
I was pointing out that as a resident of NI, I have seen no evidence for such a sea-change in opinion here. Interestingly however, I have seen evidence for a fair amount of "Bregret" among those who had voted Leave, but it's a bit late for that. IMO anyone who regrets having voted to leave the EU should have thought their decision through properly beforehand.


"Whereas a NI citizen can do as I do if they wish via their UK passport or, they can use their Eire passport and travel about Europe as EU citizens."
Indeed, the queues at airports may be end up being somewhat shorter for those of us who hold Irish passports. Huzzah!
However, something that is certainly of greater value to me is the reciprocity of healthcare provision, meaning that if I require medical treatment while abroad I can be treated there under the same conditions as though it had happened at home. In other words, I currently don't risk getting hit for a massive medical bill simply by having the misfortune to fall ill or get injured while outside the UK. Taking my own experience as an example, I travel across the border to RoI on average 10-12 times a year, whereas I go to GB once or twice a year, rest of EU again once or twice a year. I am certainly not an unusually frequent visitor to the RoI - in fact, speaking as someone who lives further than most in NI from the border, I would say the opposite is the case. So the end of those reciprocal arrangements post-Brexit is in fact more likely to adversely affect us here. (You'll have to forgive me for having little faith in the likely success of the Three Amigos in preserving this benefit of EU membership).

Originally Posted by Darcydog

Both Scotland and NI have to now consider how they fit into a UK ...

Or possibly not. Five, ten, twenty years down the line, I can't help but wonder whether the UK may end up rather shrunken. I wouldn't have predicted this prior to the referendum, but I do think it is more likely now than before that first Scotland and possibly even NI will no longer be constituent parts of the UK as they are now.

[Saga Lout]

The two year trigger is to discuss how it's going to be after article 50, how do we know before the trigger of article 50 how it's going to be? It seems that the process of debate after article 50 is triggered has to be known before and, that's fortune telling, not rational debate. There are many people who want to stay in the EU and that's their right but, many more people said out and that's how it must end. It's like saying that If I don't like the result of a General Election, I can get the result changed because some don't agree, does that argument work for you? It's Democracy and we stand or fall on the principle's of it.

[Polly]

Originally Posted by mbev51

Theresa May is living in cloud cuckoo land, how can she make the promises of access to the free market to Nissan and why not just accept the judges ruling and work with Parliament to formulate the best brexit deal ASAP rather than delay it. This whole sad episode could descend into absolute chaos. Even I have accepted that some sort of Brexit will happen as I think have most of the MPs.

Excuse me for extracting just a small part of your post, but the whole point of Theresa May's government trying to avoid a parliamentary debate, is to AVOID THE DELAY's.
It is fully expected that most MP's would respect the outcome of the referendum, although perhaps one or two might introduce delaying tactics, but far more likely would be the unelected House of Lords blocking any bill.
Now, isn't this the whole point, the Brexit process haven't even started yet, so the present instability can only be attributed to uncertainty, as you say yourself, regardless of process, Brexit will eventually happen, but the delays are causing more uncertainty.
Similarly once the process has started, having 350 parliamentarians involved can only delay the process, resulting at the end of the two year process, of having to adopt the default position of the worst hard Brexit possible. Hardly sounds like a sensible position to adopt by those hoping for a soft Brexit, does it?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mr bountyfull]

This is my post around this subject as posted on Pistonheads a few day ago.
******
There are many on here with a better grasp of the details than me, having said that I will pass comment. The EU is dependant on the German nation's willingness to sustain it. This in turn is dependent on the German elite's ability to guide the German electorate in delivering the elites desired wishes. If the likes of Merkel fail to manage this the end will come like a hook from the blind side. It will be over before we even know it's started
Now I do not pretend to grasp the Germans populaces reading of all that is going on however the decision will be before them soon. My prediction is the balance for sustaining both the Euro and the EU will evaporate next year and whether article 50 is enacted or not will make little difference as the EU as it stand will not be there to bargin with.

[Borg Warner]

Originally Posted by Mr bountyfull

This is my post around this subject as posted on Pistonheads a few day ago.
******
There are many on here with a better grasp of the details than me, having said that I will pass comment. The EU is dependant on the German nation's willingness to sustain it. This in turn is dependent on the German elite's ability to guide the German electorate in delivering the elites desired wishes. If the likes of Merkel fail to manage this the end will come like a hook from the blind side. It will be over before we even know it's started
Now I do not pretend to grasp the Germans populaces reading of all that is going on however the decision will be before them soon. My prediction is the balance for sustaining both the Euro and the EU will evaporate next year and whether article 50 is enacted or not will make little difference as the EU as it stand will not be there to bargin with.

You do yourself an injustice.

It is interesting to note that since the vote we have only been threatened by our fellow Europeans, well the French leadership at least. Surely if they were that concerned at our leaving they would do their utmost to get us to stay? Instead they look to punish us; the latest news being they are sending a delegation to try and tempt the financial institutions over to Paris. Why do that? What are they afraid of? Why not try and change what we as leavers see is wrong and perhaps, just perhaps we may stay?

The French have their elections in the spring of next year, German ones in the Autumn. I wonder what will be at the forefront of the candidates election promises? Will be very interesting to watch this all pan out.