More clutch woes (garage fobbing me off?)

drunken_prozac · 11th April 2018, 07:37

Bit of a long story to begin with but I feel it needs to be put in to save questions later on

Bought my CDTi tourer (Juliet) about 5 years ago, a little bit of clutch slippage but nothing major, the clutch lasted around 3 years when I decided enough was enough. Bought a metal master, slave and clutch kit from DMGR's and had my local garage fit it. Everything was fine and I was happy.

A year later I went to a wedding and got stuck on a blind bend on a steep hill for around 4 minutes with no handbrake (normal handbrake issues which are now fixed) so used the clutch, after this i had major slippage until she cooled down.
Ever since the clutch has slipped in 3rd/4th but as I do motorway miles it hasn't bothered me.
Six weeks ago my front spring snapped so I decided to get the clutch and slave replaced while she was in the garage, again the slave and clutch supplied by DMGR's but left the master as this was replaced above and there are no signs of leakage. As I moved house this is now a different garage from the original clutch change.
The car comes out driving fine then 2 days later my clutch hits the floor, I manage to pump it and get it to the garage which tells me the bleed nipple has broken (fluid under the bonnet pouring out) and they replace it.
I mention to them after this that 2nd is a bit of a pain to get into and they said that's just wear.

Two weeks later I am on the motorway and I lose all gears except 4th and reverse, drive it back to the garage, having to slip the clutch to get it there, the linkage cables are gone!
Mat at DMGR's is now a superstar and ships new cables directly to the garage as they can't source them, the car gets fixed and drives beautifully, better than ever.

Fast forward to Monday (2 days ago) and I'm driving changing gear fine, I enter a town so drop down to 3rd only for the pedal to hit the floor. I pump it a couple of times and it comes back, online I go to order my own ezibleed kit as I'm getting annoyed with it.
Then onto Tuesday, driving home from work and about 20miles into my journey I slow down and once again, clutch to the floor.

Now this is where my 'is the garage fobbing me off' comes in...
I pump the clutch and get it to the garage, biting point on the floor. The guy comes out and says its the flywheel as when he puts his hand on the clutch pedal he can feel a slight vibration (I've never noticed this). I ask how this would cause the clutch to drop and he says the shaking will push the slave back over time and cause the fluid to rise back up the pipe.
I got my screwdriver out, steering undertray off, opened the master and its bone dry! Two weeks earlier this had fluid in it.
Topped it up and drove it to work fine this morning.

My main questions are...
Could this be the flywheel?
Could the slave be faulty?
When I was pumping the clutch with the faulty bleed nipple could I have sucked air into the system?
or
Is there something else I can look at?

I don't mind getting my hands dirty but only have access to a set of ramps on a weekend and don't want to pay the garage to fit a flywheel if it's not a problem. I also know if it's the slave they will charge me to get it fixed as I bought the part in myself.

Any help is much appreciated

EastPete · 11th April 2018, 08:59

Quick reply:

This is nothing to do with the flywheel- you have a problem in the clutch hydraulics, either master or slave. You need to find a better garage - from the faults described they have not done quality work on your car. I would refill the system and bleed it, then looks for signs of leaks at the master and slave. Clutch slip could be due to slave leak or another source - e.g. an oil leak onto the clutch plate- either gearbox or crank oil seals.

Pete

mh007 · 11th April 2018, 09:13

As already said, the garage is talking absolute rubbish & the problem you have is without doubt hydraulic related.

Just as a thought, if you used the copper pipe supplied with the TAZU master cylinder, make sure it isn't fractured or leaking anywhere.

If you can't see any fluid behind the boot of the master cylinder inside the car & no fluid around any of the joints, especially where the pipe exits the master, you need to follow it down to the quick release coupling above the gearbox bell-housing.
if you can't find anything external, it may be a gearbox out job......by another garage!!

drunken_prozac · 11th April 2018, 09:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by mh007

As already said, the garage is talking absolute rubbish & the problem you have is without doubt hydraulic related.

Just as a thought, if you used the copper pipe supplied with the TAZU master cylinder, make sure it isn't fractured or leaking anywhere.

If you can't see any fluid behind the boot of the master cylinder inside the car & no fluid around any of the joints, especially where the pipe exits the master, you need to follow it down to the quick release coupling above the gearbox bell-housing.
if you can't find anything external, it may be a gearbox out job......by another garage!!

Thank you.

This post was more of a 'please confirm my sanity'

The master itself isn't leaking but haven't checked behind the boot yet.
On the first clutch the slip was due to the slave leaking but i don't have any slip now, I'm hoping that may rule out the slave *fingers crossed*

After the shoddy work on the bleed nipple, as I'm sure they just didn't tighten it properly, I'm hoping its something near the quick release.
Will check it over and ezibleed it myself on the weekend.
When I opened the master there was black residue on the condom so I will clean it all up while I'm down there.

thanks for your replies

Mike Noc · 11th April 2018, 12:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by drunken_prozac

A year later I went to a wedding and got stuck on a blind bend on a steep hill for around 4 minutes with no handbrake (normal handbrake issues which are now fixed) so used the clutch, after this i had major slippage until she cooled down.

If you have handbrake problems again use the footbrake - saves taking years off the clutch life and risking damage due to all the overheating.

The only reliable way to check the DMF is to remove the gearbox and clutch and check it for radial and axial play, something that should always be done when replacing the clutch.

There is information on the forum somewhere from LUK which gives the limits - I'm sure someone will be along to locate it for you.

Amsca2 · 11th April 2018, 20:59

The copper pipe wore on rav's due to being touched and rubbed on the back of the engine. World's finest hole but shot out fluid like a pressure washer. Which bit of cutting and flaring and a bleed and its still going strong.

drunken_prozac · 13th April 2018, 18:49

So yesterday I got under the clutch and dried every bit of the master, today I have what looks like a trickle on the rubbed boot at the bottom of the steering column and around the back of the master

This is a metal master and was replaced a couple of years back... maybe, just maybe it could be the pipe needs adjusting?? I'm hoping!

While I was having a look around under the sump is black with oil, almost dripping wet. I think I will get her on the ramps tomorrow and have a look as this was fine before the clutch change!

BigRuss · 14th April 2018, 00:10

There's been quality control issues with the metal masters and slaves where swarf has caused the seals to fail prematurely. Apparently this has now been addressed, but it all depends on which batch the slave came from

Russ

drunken_prozac · 14th April 2018, 18:27

So I didn't make it to the POL gathering due to the clutch, but I have had a good go at fixing it.

Got her up in the air and saw clutch fluid all over the chassis.
Battery tray our and it is leaking around the connector. I can also see what looks like molegrip marks around the connector so I'm not very amused.

Dried it and pumped the clutch to find it is leaking around the split-ring clip so went on the hunt for a new o-ring but with no luck in any shop.
I ended up putting 2 wraps of ptfe tape around the connector and slipped the o-ring back on, pushed it back in and I could already feel it was a better connection. Have bled the system and the clutch is loads better and not leaking.
I don't know if ptfe is going to be a good choice but it's holding at the moment.

I still have a drip at the bottom of the master but it seems to be coming from further up so I will keep an eye on it, might have been my lid-replacing technique.

Thanks for everyone's input and confirming I wasn't going insane when the garage tried to tell me it was the flywheel!

Conenctor as it was

The leaky o-ring

PTFE in the o-ring groove and put back in

(links as I can't get images working)
https://imgur.com/C4c645r
https://imgur.com/ySc8m1K
https://imgur.com/TzWXBxz

drunken_prozac · 16th April 2018, 15:06

How do I upload photos?

I have tried imgur with [IMG formatting but no luck.

Anyway, it looks like someone has broken off the plastic pressure slider and tried to unscrew the pressure connection. In the end the inside pipe has come out leaving the pressure connector still in situ and me with a leaking oring.
Can i get the pressure fitting out easily enough if the plastic slider has been broken off?

Now that has been temporarily fixed (dry for 2 days, whoopie!) my clutch pedal is creaking badly. Time to replace the master maybe?

Thanks everyone

11th April 2018, 07:37	#1
drunken_prozac Newbie MG ZT-T Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Undy Posts: 26 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	More clutch woes (garage fobbing me off?) Bit of a long story to begin with but I feel it needs to be put in to save questions later on Bought my CDTi tourer (Juliet) about 5 years ago, a little bit of clutch slippage but nothing major, the clutch lasted around 3 years when I decided enough was enough. Bought a metal master, slave and clutch kit from DMGR's and had my local garage fit it. Everything was fine and I was happy. A year later I went to a wedding and got stuck on a blind bend on a steep hill for around 4 minutes with no handbrake (normal handbrake issues which are now fixed) so used the clutch, after this i had major slippage until she cooled down. Ever since the clutch has slipped in 3rd/4th but as I do motorway miles it hasn't bothered me. Six weeks ago my front spring snapped so I decided to get the clutch and slave replaced while she was in the garage, again the slave and clutch supplied by DMGR's but left the master as this was replaced above and there are no signs of leakage. As I moved house this is now a different garage from the original clutch change. The car comes out driving fine then 2 days later my clutch hits the floor, I manage to pump it and get it to the garage which tells me the bleed nipple has broken (fluid under the bonnet pouring out) and they replace it. I mention to them after this that 2nd is a bit of a pain to get into and they said that's just wear. Two weeks later I am on the motorway and I lose all gears except 4th and reverse, drive it back to the garage, having to slip the clutch to get it there, the linkage cables are gone! Mat at DMGR's is now a superstar and ships new cables directly to the garage as they can't source them, the car gets fixed and drives beautifully, better than ever. Fast forward to Monday (2 days ago) and I'm driving changing gear fine, I enter a town so drop down to 3rd only for the pedal to hit the floor. I pump it a couple of times and it comes back, online I go to order my own ezibleed kit as I'm getting annoyed with it. Then onto Tuesday, driving home from work and about 20miles into my journey I slow down and once again, clutch to the floor. Now this is where my 'is the garage fobbing me off' comes in... I pump the clutch and get it to the garage, biting point on the floor. The guy comes out and says its the flywheel as when he puts his hand on the clutch pedal he can feel a slight vibration (I've never noticed this). I ask how this would cause the clutch to drop and he says the shaking will push the slave back over time and cause the fluid to rise back up the pipe. I got my screwdriver out, steering undertray off, opened the master and its bone dry! Two weeks earlier this had fluid in it. Topped it up and drove it to work fine this morning. My main questions are... Could this be the flywheel? Could the slave be faulty? When I was pumping the clutch with the faulty bleed nipple could I have sucked air into the system? or Is there something else I can look at? I don't mind getting my hands dirty but only have access to a set of ramps on a weekend and don't want to pay the garage to fit a flywheel if it's not a problem. I also know if it's the slave they will charge me to get it fixed as I bought the part in myself. Any help is much appreciated

11th April 2018, 20:59	#6
Amsca2 Gets stuck in MG ZT-T cdti Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Grangemouth Posts: 521 Thanks: 60 Thanked 93 Times in 80 Posts	The copper pipe wore on rav's due to being touched and rubbed on the back of the engine. World's finest hole but shot out fluid like a pressure washer. Which bit of cutting and flaring and a bleed and its still going strong. __________________ The Typhoon Bull

14th April 2018, 00:10	#8
BigRuss Premium Trader 75 CDT Tourer,2.5 Launch Saloon, Omipro MG/Rover (T4) Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Liversedge, West Yorkshire Posts: 5,405 Thanks: 1,105 Thanked 1,340 Times in 661 Posts	There's been quality control issues with the metal masters and slaves where swarf has caused the seals to fail prematurely. Apparently this has now been addressed, but it all depends on which batch the slave came from Russ __________________ Replacement Key Service http://https://the75andztclub.co.uk/...d.php?t=244732 Full T4 Testbook diagnostics available. Diesel ECU repair and replacement. Options enabled or disabled as required. Diesel X-Power 135 and 160bhp, Rover 1.8T 150 to 160 MG 160 V6 to 177 upgrades available P.M. for details.

14th April 2018, 18:27	#9
drunken_prozac Newbie MG ZT-T Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Undy Posts: 26 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	So I didn't make it to the POL gathering due to the clutch, but I have had a good go at fixing it. Got her up in the air and saw clutch fluid all over the chassis. Battery tray our and it is leaking around the connector. I can also see what looks like molegrip marks around the connector so I'm not very amused. Dried it and pumped the clutch to find it is leaking around the split-ring clip so went on the hunt for a new o-ring but with no luck in any shop. I ended up putting 2 wraps of ptfe tape around the connector and slipped the o-ring back on, pushed it back in and I could already feel it was a better connection. Have bled the system and the clutch is loads better and not leaking. I don't know if ptfe is going to be a good choice but it's holding at the moment. I still have a drip at the bottom of the master but it seems to be coming from further up so I will keep an eye on it, might have been my lid-replacing technique. Thanks for everyone's input and confirming I wasn't going insane when the garage tried to tell me it was the flywheel! Conenctor as it was The leaky o-ring PTFE in the o-ring groove and put back in (links as I can't get images working) https://imgur.com/C4c645r https://imgur.com/ySc8m1K https://imgur.com/TzWXBxz Last edited by drunken_prozac; 16th April 2018 at 15:08..

11th April 2018, 08:59	#2
EastPete Posted a thing or two Rover 75 CDTi Classic saloon, MGB GT, Skoda Yeti Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Ramsey, Cambs Posts: 1,874 Thanks: 626 Thanked 635 Times in 430 Posts	Quick reply: This is nothing to do with the flywheel- you have a problem in the clutch hydraulics, either master or slave. You need to find a better garage - from the faults described they have not done quality work on your car. I would refill the system and bleed it, then looks for signs of leaks at the master and slave. Clutch slip could be due to slave leak or another source - e.g. an oil leak onto the clutch plate- either gearbox or crank oil seals. Pete

11th April 2018, 09:13	#3
mh007 This is my second home MG ZT260 SE, MG ZT190+, MG ZTT 160, R75 Conn SE 2.0, R75 Conn SE 2.5 X 3, R75 Club SE 1.8, P5B Coupe Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Keynsham, Bristol Posts: 4,211 Thanks: 65 Thanked 635 Times in 499 Posts	As already said, the garage is talking absolute rubbish & the problem you have is without doubt hydraulic related. Just as a thought, if you used the copper pipe supplied with the TAZU master cylinder, make sure it isn't fractured or leaking anywhere. If you can't see any fluid behind the boot of the master cylinder inside the car & no fluid around any of the joints, especially where the pipe exits the master, you need to follow it down to the quick release coupling above the gearbox bell-housing. if you can't find anything external, it may be a gearbox out job......by another garage!!

13th April 2018, 18:49	#7
drunken_prozac Newbie MG ZT-T Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Undy Posts: 26 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	So yesterday I got under the clutch and dried every bit of the master, today I have what looks like a trickle on the rubbed boot at the bottom of the steering column and around the back of the master This is a metal master and was replaced a couple of years back... maybe, just maybe it could be the pipe needs adjusting?? I'm hoping! While I was having a look around under the sump is black with oil, almost dripping wet. I think I will get her on the ramps tomorrow and have a look as this was fine before the clutch change!

16th April 2018, 15:06	#10
drunken_prozac Newbie MG ZT-T Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Undy Posts: 26 Thanks: 1 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	How do I upload photos? I have tried imgur with [IMG formatting but no luck. Anyway, it looks like someone has broken off the plastic pressure slider and tried to unscrew the pressure connection. In the end the inside pipe has come out leaving the pressure connector still in situ and me with a leaking oring. Can i get the pressure fitting out easily enough if the plastic slider has been broken off? Now that has been temporarily fixed (dry for 2 days, whoopie!) my clutch pedal is creaking badly. Time to replace the master maybe? Thanks everyone