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Old 7th December 2020, 15:43   #31
rovertone
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I had my remap done by PhilT4 about 6+ years ago and have been well pleased from day 1.
I had the car put on a dyno about 3 years later not specifically for engine power check but to try and fault find an overheating/fan issue and was told that the car was producing 130bhp at the wheels which allowing for transmission loss leaves power at the crank not too far off what we understand as our clubs '160 remap'
As stated, regardless of what the actual power figure is I have 150K on the clock and the car is a dream to drive so wouldn't hesitate in recommending anyone to have the same remap. Mixed motoring around UK I get just short of 40mpg with 44/45 on several long high speed trips down to the Algarve which for an auto I think is very acceptable.
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Old 7th December 2020, 15:56   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rovertone View Post
I had my remap done by PhilT4 about 6+ years ago and have been well pleased from day 1.
I had the car put on a dyno about 3 years later not specifically for engine power check but to try and fault find an overheating/fan issue and was told that the car was producing 130bhp at the wheels which allowing for transmission loss leaves power at the crank not too far off what we understand as our clubs '160 remap'
As stated, regardless of what the actual power figure is I have 150K on the clock and the car is a dream to drive so wouldn't hesitate in recommending anyone to have the same remap. Mixed motoring around UK I get just short of 40mpg with 44/45 on several long high speed trips down to the Algarve which for an auto I think is very acceptable.
That is the first time I've seen anyone independently quote dynamometer figures Tony, so if you enter your 130BHP at the wheel figure into this online calculator I've just found and enter the options of FWD automatic, then a flywheel figure of 159BHP comes out, and for a manual car 156BHP


Anyone can try it, the link is here


LINK


The disclaimer does say it is a guesstimate, but the calculations must have been derived from something tangible


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Old 7th December 2020, 16:02   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Best View Post
That is the first time I've seen anyone independently quote dynamometer figures Tony, so if you enter your 130BHP at the wheel figure into this online calculator I've just found and enter the options of FWD automatic, then a flywheel figure of 159BHP comes out, and for a manual car 156BHP


Anyone can try it, the link is here


LINK


The disclaimer does say it is a guesstimate, but the calculations must have been derived from something tangible


Alf
When a car is run on a dyno, the dyno calculates the losses of the car on the rundown, far more accurate than a guessing calculator. That calculator classes a 5 speed automatic as modern and 3 speed automatic as typical, I wouldn't have thought their values would be accurate for more modern cars.

I have 2 dyno figures, a car that had the 160 map which produced 146.5bhp and 266.1lbft of torque. Like I said, better than stock.

I then mapped it myself and the same car on the same dyno produced 160.2bhp and 317.7lbft of torque.
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Old 7th December 2020, 16:15   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiewelch View Post
When a car is run on a dyno, the dyno calculates the losses of the car on the rundown, far more accurate than a guessing calculator. That calculator classes a 5 speed automatic as modern and 3 speed automatic as typical, I wouldn't have thought their values would be accurate for more modern cars.

I have 2 dyno figures, a car that had the 160 map which produced 146.5bhp and 266.1lbft of torque. Like I said, better than stock.

I then mapped it myself and the same car on the same dyno produced 160.2bhp and 317.7lbft of torque.

Those appear to be impressive figures, for instance over 130Nm extra peak torque over my standard car.


Were those figures obtained from a manual or automatic car? and would it be possible to upload the dynamometer printouts for comparison?


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Old 7th December 2020, 16:19   #35
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Originally Posted by Alf Best View Post
Those appear to be impressive figures, for instance over 130Nm extra peak torque over my standard car.


Were those figures obtained from a manual or automatic car? and would it be possible to upload the dynamometer printouts for comparison?


Alf
Manual MK2. The torque is what you feel, that's why there is noticeable difference. I'll find the graph for the run with my map and upload it later on, I'll ask if the dyno guy can send the graph for the 160 as it should still be stored on the PC.
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Old 7th December 2020, 16:31   #36
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Originally Posted by Jamiewelch View Post
Manual MK2. The torque is what you feel, that's why there is noticeable difference. I'll find the graph for the run with my map and upload it later on, I'll ask if the dyno guy can send the graph for the 160 as it should still be stored on the PC.

Just out of interest then, and again purely theoretical, what sort of lifespan would you expect from a standard clutch when increasing the torque to a figure that is 143% of the original?


Would increasing the torque output by such a large margin, not lead to premature failure, and does it require an uprated unit to be fitted.


I'd definitely be interested in the graphs should you be able to upload them


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Old 7th December 2020, 17:28   #37
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I don't have access to the figures for each of the 160 maps as they're on an old laptop that isn't with me at the moment, as I haven't used it in years and it's in storage.

Will do some digging and see what I can find.

If you want to have a look at some graphs though then do a Google search for rover 75 180 remap then try 171 remap and also Rob Drinkwater who tuned one too 190ps with a few tweaks and modifications, the transmission really complained about that.

Edit: found a few approx figures, I know we limited the power output to protect the transmission and clutches I think the manuals to approx mid 340Nm and the auto's to just under 360 Nm as the automatic gearboxes have a greater tolerance to torque. Anything much above those sorts of figures and the clutch or transmission may start to suffer.

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Old 7th December 2020, 17:44   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Best View Post
That is the first time I've seen anyone independently quote dynamometer figures Tony, so if you enter your 130BHP at the wheel figure into this online calculator I've just found and enter the options of FWD automatic, then a flywheel figure of 159BHP comes out, and for a manual car 156BHP


Anyone can try it, the link is here


LINK


The disclaimer does say it is a guesstimate, but the calculations must have been derived from something tangible


Alf
Alf, IIRC the dyno operator said the transmission loss would be about 15 - 20% which stacks up somewhere near.
Unfortunately I didnt get a graph as the printer was out of action but I wasn't too fussed because I was chasing a more specific issue. The dyno owner seemed pretty clued up, he had been doing development work for a motor manufacturer which I think was MG who were local and assembling cars at that time.
Also I can't say what state of tune the car was in, I always keep my cars well serviced but didn't freshly service it especially.
Tony
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Old 7th December 2020, 19:55   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiewelch View Post
When a car is run on a dyno, the dyno calculates the losses of the car on the rundown, far more accurate than a guessing calculator. That calculator classes a 5 speed automatic as modern and 3 speed automatic as typical, I wouldn't have thought their values would be accurate for more modern cars.

I have 2 dyno figures, a car that had the 160 map which produced 146.5bhp and 266.1lbft of torque. Like I said, better than stock.

I then mapped it myself and the same car on the same dyno produced 160.2bhp and 317.7lbft of torque.
So can I ask, was your map based upon a standard NNW5991 tune then Jamie, or piggybacked?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiewelch View Post
Manual MK2. The torque is what you feel, that's why there is noticeable difference. I'll find the graph for the run with my map and upload it later on, I'll ask if the dyno guy can send the graph for the 160 as it should still be stored on the PC.
Now that I'd be interested in seeing for myself

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alf Best View Post
Would increasing the torque output by such a large margin, not lead to premature failure, and does it require an uprated unit to be fitted.
Alf

Yes it would Alf

I can explain why too

The outer diameter of the standard CDTi clutch is 228mm, the inner diameter is 150mm, and the friction coefficient of the driven plate 0.25 with an axial clamping load of 6600N provided by the pressure plate.

This means the calculated maximum torque rating of the clutch is 370Nm or 273 ft/lb

These final output figures were obtained during several dyno runs at Ron Perry A19 Test & Tune nr. Hartlepool in 2012

Automatic car 159.4 BHP peak torque 359Nm

Manual car 157.9 BHP peak torque 345Nm


There are minor variations between non EOBD and EOBD compliant cars, but these are minor.

When the fuelling was increased to the point where the turbocharger was unable to supply sufficient air charge to completely combust the injected fuel, then the clutch in the manual test car began to slip.

The mean figures were arrived at as there was the desirability to improve the standard driveability of the car while maintaining reliability, rather than any other aim

I still have some of the beta tunes and one of the development variants of the NNN500340 manual tunes produced just shy of 163 BHP and peaked out at 390Nm, however it was very smoky and could certainly provoke slipping of the clutch under harsh acceleration.

As Russ pointed out previously that power output with a couple of minor mechanical modifications can place figures close to 180BHP, however as I said previously, the main aim was to improve driveability in otherwise standard cars, but not at the expense of reliability.

The torque output of the automatic version is higher than the manual, as the safe limits of the Jatco autobox allow this.

I see you are not that far from me, once the current restrictions are relaxed, if you wish to pop over to my place I'll let you take my car for a spin and see how it compares to yours



Brian
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Old 7th December 2020, 20:56   #40
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Just found this from a few years ago

Thread here https://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/for...d.php?t=129619

Last edited by suzublu; 7th December 2020 at 20:58..
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