Apprenticeships.

[jackatesme]

More complaints about Brexit. On the news last night a factory owner was complaining he can't get experienced men. Behind him were some NC machines, during the late 60s i worked for an engineering company making excavators who were the 1st local company to bring in this type of machine. A few of us were chosen to go on a short course for operating and programming, afterwards we trained up some younger people to eventually take our place,it was called apprenticeships. Instead of moaning about lack of experienced workers he should have been asked why he dosen't employ some youngsters and get them experienced simples.

[2.8jonmy]

When I "served my time" it took four years, my experienced colleagues scoffed as they served five to seven years when they trained.
Now the government led schemes see the same tradesmen churned out in two years! I know this because I have trained them. I now scoff at the time scale and feel under valued as it seems time served engineers are now churned out at twice the rate but and it's a big but they are produced in miniscule numbers even compared to when I trained twenty years ago.
Most experienced machinists and I mean manual machinists are now retiring, I've watched as local engineering firms fail to fill the role of their machinist as he retires.
Maybe it's all just progress and I'm getting old.
Jon.

[Mr Bone]

I can't see how brexit causes a machine shop owner to struggle with finding skilled labour.
Trying to find time served machine tool setters and operators won't be an easy task because very few have been trained since the late 70s and most have moved on, they had to to survive.
In 1981 I became a fully skilled machine tool op, just as our illustrious govt had started to decimate the manufacturing industry. There were over 3000 fully skilled jobless engineers in Bolton and there were no more apprentices to follow my years intake, so by and large there were no more 5yr trained machinists since the end of the 70s.

The main reason machine shop owners cant find skilled labour is that we're at best in our mid 50s, have moved on, haven't had our hand in for the best part of 30yrs,and are unlikely to accept £8/hr as I saw recently.

Nothing whatsoever to do with the UK leaving the EU.

[MSS]

Originally Posted by Mr Bone

......

Nothing whatsoever to do with the UK leaving the EU.

Usually, I would tend to agree with you on many issues pointed at Brexit. But, on this one, there may actually be some facts behind the statement from the owner.

Many East European's do have those machines hop engineering skills as their home countries retained mechanical engineering industries unlike ourselves.

[murphyv310]

This country should be ashamed. When I started working in 1970 there were so many proper apprentices, going on day release to college or doing pre-apprentice courses at college too. I did a pre-apprentice course for a few weeks but landed a job very quickly and then went to Day Release. I gained my CG TV Technicians diploma in 4 years but later went on to do an HNC.

Snag is successive governments have pushed "the city" with insurance and banking making up the so called wealth of the country. Our manufacturing has been in decline for many years and with Eastern Europe having excellent engineering skills and China improving all the time we are getting left behind. It is nothing to do with Brexit, that is an excuse and just the usual nonsense we hear.
Did Brexit destroy our Electronics industry, our ship building, our massive losses in the home grown car industry, Lucas, BHS, Woolworths, Unipart, and so on.
Companies are still going down and the foreigners still want to take over our companies too.
So unless our mindset changes and we buckle down and get into gear this country will fail Brexit or no Brexit.

[Christopher Price]

Sadly, this is how Globalisation works. Stop Training the indigenous work force and then when there is a skills shortage, bring in immigrants trained abroad to do what used to be a skilled well paid job, and turn it into a minimum wage job. Witness what has been done in the NHS, thousands of potential British Nurses denied training, so we then have to pillage the Third World for their Doctors and Nurses, from Countries that can ill afford for them to leave. At least we now have one World Leader that will look after his own people, it'll remain to be seen whether we ever get a strong enough Leader in power in this Country to do the same for the British.

[wraymond]

As with so many words and titles, they have become devalued in meaning and therefore in reality, 'apprentice' er.... give it it's true status, Apprentice, bears no resemblance to what it used to be.

I started working life as an Apprentice Instrument Artificer with ICI in Runcorn (or more accurately Weston Point). It involved my father attending local offices to witness the signing of my Indentures, a formal document not unlike the Magna Carta, where certain guarantees on both sides were made to cover a period of 5 years.

I worked damned hard to get that, a year at college funded by parents of 'modest' income and Dad was justifiably proud (he had worked in the same factory for many years). As my chosen career of fame and glory as a rock star was curiously not to be, it seemed a good idea.

Now? It's cheap labour, think Pret a Manger for 6 months, and is seen as an introductory basic Barista trial or 'intern' working for peanuts. I'm glad I'm old.

[Mr Bone]

Originally Posted by mss

Usually, I would tend to agree with you on many issues pointed at Brexit. But, on this one, there may actually be some facts behind the statement from the owner.

Many East European's do have those machines hop engineering skills as their home countries retained mechanical engineering industries unlike ourselves.

It's all very well purporting that brexit could be to blame for this void in our skill base, recently it seems that most issues are pinned on this cash cow for the media...and I don't really want to get dragged into a political debate about the EU, but...
in the mid 90s a friend of mine had a machine shop that I used to lend a hand some evenings setting a few old automatic lathes for him. One set of tooling was for a job for Lotus, lots of fiddly bits to cut on each piece, and it usually took most of the night to set up. So a few months since the last tool up I asked him when he needed it done, turns out Lotus were having the part manufactured and delivered in India cheaper than he could buy the material.

This of course has nothing to do with the EU, and being from the industry I doubt the OP has either.

[jackatesme]

The point i was making in O.P. was not about brexit,it was about the owners lack of foresight. He could have employed a few youngsters on the minimum wage in preparation for the future.

[Darcydog]

Originally Posted by jackatesme

The point i was making in O.P. was not about brexit,it was about the owners lack of foresight. He could have employed a few youngsters on the minimum wage in preparation for the future.

That is how I read your post. There is actually a very good modern apprenticeship scheme available to employers - I know because my old firm was a supporter of it and we currently still employ one of them and another chap has left to go to another firm to gain broader experience - we rather hope he will come back to us in the future so we can benefit from his "added value".

Employers cannot expect to go to some sort of "old eastern bloc" employment 'pic n mix' to solve a skills shortage

Could it be possible that Brexit will change the dynamic here ? - could Brexit mean that by coming out our employers have to make sure that local home grown talent is brought on and nurtured rather than their being able to take expertise from another country because it is a cheaper option?