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Old 2nd March 2021, 13:02   #51
Lancpudn
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Be careful how you jack up a Jaguar i-pace to change a wheel It can get expensive if you put the jack in the wrong place.


https://insideevs.com/news/491369/da...e-repair-cost/



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Old 3rd March 2021, 09:59   #52
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and where does all the “clean “ electricity come from to re charge these clean electric cars- base load power stations mostly powered by fossil fuel gas, coal or
do we class nuclear as a clean fuel- i think not, if you correlate the fact that we are looking for a product that has zero effect on humans and the environment ,
well if you consider the radioactive isotopes being buried with a 10,000 year half life not really good for the earth or humans!
So hydrogen looks the best option at this time but no govt wants to do this as they cant tax air!!
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Old 3rd March 2021, 18:29   #53
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and where does all the “clean “ electricity come from to re charge these clean electric cars- base load power stations mostly powered by fossil fuel gas, coal or
do we class nuclear as a clean fuel- i think not, if you correlate the fact that we are looking for a product that has zero effect on humans and the environment ,
well if you consider the radioactive isotopes being buried with a 10,000 year half life not really good for the earth or humans!
So hydrogen looks the best option at this time but no govt wants to do this as they cant tax air!!
But they could tax the liquid

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Old 4th March 2021, 15:41   #54
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and where does all the “clean “ electricity come from to re charge these clean electric cars- base load power stations mostly powered by fossil fuel gas, coal or
do we class nuclear as a clean fuel- i think not, if you correlate the fact that we are looking for a product that has zero effect on humans and the environment ,
well if you consider the radioactive isotopes being buried with a 10,000 year half life not really good for the earth or humans!
So hydrogen looks the best option at this time but no govt wants to do this as they cant tax air!!
The majority of electricity in the UK comes form renewables and nuclear so EVs are markedly cleaner that ICE vehicles that only manage to convert 30% of the fuel burn into motion. The rest is wasted as heat and poisonous exhaust fumes. If you consider the additional energy needed to pump the oil out of the ground, transport it via pipelines or tankers to the refineries and then refine it and tanker it to garages the pollution cost is huge.

If you think EV cars are expensive, check out the cost of Hydrogen cars and the cost of the fuel.
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Old 4th March 2021, 18:02   #55
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If you think EV cars are expensive, check out the cost of Hydrogen cars and the cost of the fuel.
Yes but the difference is most ICE vehicles could be adapted to run on hydrogen relatively easily and the only reason hydrogen is expensive is because of the amount produced, if ICE cars were converted on the production line to run on Hydrogen and the stuff was produced in the same volumes as petrol and diesel it would cost no more and is carbon neutral if the electricity used to make is from wind farms and the like. We would then get the best of both worlds, clean cars, no extended recharging and the existing infrastructure that distributes petrol could be used with some adaptation.

Part of me worries if getting everybody on the electric bandwagon will be similar to the diesel thing a few years ago. The government wins as they get all the taxes on the new vehicles and the manufacturers win because they sell lots of new cars, the only looser will be us.

I for one will be holding on for as long as possible to my fossil powered vehicle, hopefully by the time I have to replace them all the teething troubles will be sorted and the cost of the electric vehicles will be a lot cheaper.
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Old 5th March 2021, 19:54   #56
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Yes but the difference is most ICE vehicles could be adapted to run on hydrogen relatively easily and the only reason hydrogen is expensive is because of the amount produced, if ICE cars were converted on the production line to run on Hydrogen and the stuff was produced in the same volumes as petrol and diesel it would cost no more and is carbon neutral if the electricity used to make is from wind farms and the like. We would then get the best of both worlds, clean cars, no extended recharging and the existing infrastructure that distributes petrol could be used with some adaptation.

Part of me worries if getting everybody on the electric bandwagon will be similar to the diesel thing a few years ago. The government wins as they get all the taxes on the new vehicles and the manufacturers win because they sell lots of new cars, the only looser will be us.

I for one will be holding on for as long as possible to my fossil powered vehicle, hopefully by the time I have to replace them all the teething troubles will be sorted and the cost of the electric vehicles will be a lot cheaper.

You are way off on this.


Hydrogen combustion engines dies shortly after they were tried in the 90’s which is why they switched to try fuel cells which while they can be clean are a bigger issue to the country than going all BEV’s

Hydrogen fuel cells all still need battery packs which still needs the same minerals as BEV but the Fuel cells need a whole new set of rear earths. This adds complexity and cost.


The hydrogen tank and system is massively more costly. The plastic extruded fuel pipes and blow moulded tanks that cost pennies to hold petrol or diesel can’t be used for hydrogen. The engineering for hydrogen and the materials is several levels above what we currently use to stop it leaking out and away that its cost will be vastly increased on what’s in an ICE.

Then you need to look at the fuel and what that needs compared with EV’s.

EV’s are simple, generate electricity as green as possible, send down the lines and store in the car over all the efficiency is a bit over 80%.



The grid level generations for both have the same efficiency the difference is in the transport and end point efficiency.


For hydrogen to be green it’s so much more inefficient.



In reverse order the fuel cell is more efficiency than an ICE engine but has greater losses then BEV.



To fill up at a station the hydrogen needs to store in a liquid form to maintain the density to fill lots of cars. Every filling station is now running a refrigeration system continually. You also have the issue of the above ground tanks of compressed hydrogen located next to homes, not an efficiency issue but the issue of NIMBY is a massive hurdle. The fuel needs trucking to the stations which uses energy again losing out to the BEV approach.



Now we are at the generation stage, electrolysis of water is needed if this is to be green and not just fracking natural gas. Electrolysis is a massively energy intensive and inefficient process. To get enough energy/hydrogen out of this we need to pump in many multiple times of energy in, to cover the losses in every stage of this process. Now to operate commercially a company creating hydrogen won’t operate at the intermittent whims of renewable energy availability so we need over capacity or subsidies to cover any fluctuations.

For BEV we will need less generation capacity overall by a large margin and BEV has several mitigation strategies. Home charging will work for a great many people and with this will come time optimised charging and also home generation and storage.

BEV is just more efficient as a complete energy cycle that it is less of an issue for the country to move to. People may like their ICE but it is directly harming our health and sending the climate to hell.

Hydrogen has a place as a solution but it isn’t for everyone’s cars, planes and boats yes. But for light duty applications the energy wasted is to much, that when you are in regular direct vicinity of a grid connection BEV make sense.



The overall efficiency of >80% and the ability to time optimise charging for most drivers most of the time make the challenges to BEV far smaller than hydrogen fuel cell drives. Further down the road vehicle to grid is a very useful tool to the country



The greenest approach is to run your existing can in to scrap and then just buy the next cleanest car you can afford. BEV’s, hybrids and hydrogen will just become the second hand cars with time
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Old 6th March 2021, 22:00   #57
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its funny how alit of the electric vehicle advocates fail to mention all the carbon emissions created in the production of a ev.
All the copper required- miles of wiring, battery production etc, these all need to be dug out, processed etc.
I believe making a ev car is no better off than a regular fossil fuel car carbon wise, then we talk about emissions created by cars, when you factor in all the emissions required to recycle all the banks of batteries in ev’s and the requiement for the production of millions of new ones, wonder how much difference in emissions there will be.
Could it be one big con job to create a whole new set of industries?
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Old 6th March 2021, 22:54   #58
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No one for EV forgets that they need copper and other additional materials for the battery packs.

You do in deed dig out and process more materials up front once. Then the car last longer than ICE with less ware and they require less servicing than an ICE saving whole heaps of material in the process.

And then when the car finally reaches it end of life you recycle it. That copper get used as copper again, same with the lithium. There are companies now operating to do this and more coming online as the resources have great value to be recycled not dug out new. And all of this comes without polluting the air we breathe in daily.

How many litres of the fuel and oil you use, gets recycled?? Every single week more is pumped out the earth and burnt, ready for the next litter of oil to be pumped over and over again
If you’re bothered by fresh resources removal you would walk and not drive anything.

As for total life of emissions they have thankfully has plenty of academics run the numbers they are cleaner by a large margin over their life and then they don’t pollute the air where we all live

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Old 6th March 2021, 22:56   #59
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It’s natural to be pessimistic being British and all, but no matter how you try to delve in a carve out a reasoning for yourself, remember, the amount of misinformation out there is rife. Fors and against, Negatives and positives, pros and cons!!!!

No one said a BEV has no carbon footprint, yes it must be produced in a factory as are current ICE cars but the ongoing running of thousands of BEV’s will have a much smaller footprint that ICE cars. The amount of juice needed to charge a ICE car overnight for say 300 miles of travel is way less than what you imagine and is certainly less of a carbon footprint that fossil fuelled cars. It’s on a 13amp plug for starters!!!
Remember fuel has to be drilled for, processed, refined, tankered to your local station and then electrically pumped into your vehicle, a huge footprint before we even get started driving.

I believe we will dislike the idea all the way to getting our first BEV and then opinion will slowly change.

Remember the birth of the railway in the 1800s???
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Old 7th March 2021, 11:10   #60
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we shall see how popular the ev cars will be by 2025.
In a place line the uk or europe where there is a village every 50km
where people dont travel 400km between towns seeing nothing in between
uptake might be ok , pending some sort of massive price reduction in ev cars purchase price as currently are way beyond most punters.
As mentioned, vast areas of the world with large remote areas are waiting to see how this “green new deal” is physically going to enhance their lives where an ev car would last only as long as one battery charge as there would be no infastructure in place to recharge them, let alone waiting around for 20 minutes each time your “power” runs out.
As said, i really cant see the mining industry having heavy industrial machinery
which incidently will be digging up all the minerals these clean ev cars need to have to be built running as a electric vehicle, it will be diesel engines doing that for some time to come.
The ev will be for inner city metro dweller for some time to come.
As for recycling the car again and again, lets get real, have a look the figures of cars produced as to the amount that have been recycled.
Lets apply this to all the products that are recyclable , lets face it,humans are not good at recycling,we recycle a fraction of what we produce.
Why,? industry needs consumption to survive so has little REAL interest in it.
So, given these facts, i love to hear the optimistic views of some but you really do need to look at things in a realistic view.
Even people i know in the oil and gas industry say reports of the imminent death of fossil fuels is alot of political posturing.
Yes things will change but not for while yet!!!
Technology at this time does not have the answers it purports to have!!

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