Laser timing tools - Page 3

SD1too · 25th December 2020, 11:53

Here's my Laser tool (from the same kit), bought about two and a half years ago and different again!

As you can see it's screwed (the smaller diameter ring is welded).

Simon

YMGF · 25th December 2020, 18:08

It's like watching Darwinian theory in action!!

YMGF · 26th December 2020, 16:19

Well, I've done the belts now. For the primary belt, locking pin in and tools fitted front and rear. Belt fitted anti-clockwise with the sprockets kept as far clockwise as possible.
As noted earlier, when it came to the secondary side I did the front bank first and pin had to be removed and engine rotated slightly to enable the tool to fit. Nevertheless, belt fitted.
I then came to the rear bank and expected the tool to fit without further adjustment of crankshaft. However, the tool didn't fit and another small adjustment was required.
Has anyone experienced this? I'm confident the primary belt is correct and whilst inlet and exhaust on each bank are in sync, the front and rear banks are not.
Albeit they are not far off, would this be a problem? Using the tools to align inlet and exhaust, there is no way I can see to get the front and rear banks perfectly synchronised.

SD1too · 26th December 2020, 18:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by YMGF

Has anyone experienced this? I'm confident the primary belt is correct and whilst inlet and exhaust on each bank are in sync, the front and rear banks are not.

I think you're referring to the front and rear belts Michael, not banks. To avoid confusion, the banks are best described according to convention: left and right.

You have successfully synchronised the inlet and exhaust camshafts on each bank with the crankshaft. This is done with the front tooling and the flywheel/drive plate locking pin.

Having done this, it doesn't matter how much the engine is turned to remove the rear belts. Once these secondary belts are off, each exhaust camshaft will move (due to the valve springs) but the inlet camshafts will not. They are held by the front belt. The inlets are the reference. The exhaust camshafts are returned to their synchronised position as the new rear belts are fitted, assisted by the special tools. Synchronisation has not been lost.

Simon

YMGF · 27th December 2020, 08:00

Thanks Simon, and note the point about terminology.

I see your logic about the inlets being fixed on both left and right banks by the front, primary belt which was installed using tools and with locking pin installed.
I'm also clear about having to move the engine position slightly to fit the tool for the secondary belt. (The left one as it happens when I did it).

The bit I'm struggling to understand though is, if both inlet camshaft positions are fixed by the primary belt, why did I have to rotate the engine slightly again to fit the tool for the right hand secondary belt?

I expected, (possibly wrongly!), that when the engine had been positioned to allow the tool to fit for the left hand secondary belt, it would fit directly on the right side too. If it is necessary to rotate the engine slightly to fit left and right secondary belts would that not mean the timing is also slightly different with respect to TDC for both banks?

Thanks for your help on this. I think I've installed all belts correctly now but just like to get a good understanding of the mechanics too.

SD1too · 27th December 2020, 08:46

Thanks for coming back to me on this Michael. I didn't fully appreciate what you were saying last time but now I do.

Yes, I agree that having rotated the engine slightly to enable fitment of the rear tool on the LH bank, it should not have been necessary to rotate it again to remove the rear belt on the RH bank. That does indeed suggest that there is a discrepancy between the inlet camshaft positions on left and right hand banks.

Can I check that you have the somewhat complex procedure for setting-up the primary belt tensioner pulley published by INA (and not available in RAVE or Haynes)?

Simon

chris75 · 27th December 2020, 14:50

Apologies if I am teaching my grannie to suck eggs , but this turning the crankshaft issue has me intrigued , as I've never needed to do it .
Can I ask , first of all , if we are talking about refitting the rear belts and not removing them ? Secondly , when refitting the rear sprockets it is necessary to rotate the exhaust camshaft to achieve alignment as these float free without the belt fitted and are not held by the front belt or therefore the crank ; Can I check that you tried rotating the exhaust cams before you resorted to turning the crank ?

Rotating the crank will move the inlet cams , but not the exhaust if the rear belts are not fitted , and these should already be bang on if the front tools were used .

SD1too · 27th December 2020, 21:59

To answer your questions Chris, we are talking about removing and refitting the rear belts. The sprocket wheels are slightly out of alignment when the flywheel/drive plate pin is fitted. This prevents the removal tool being fitted. The pin must be removed and the engine turned very slightly until the sprockets align. After that, we proceed as the book says.

Regarding your second question, the slight turning of the engine is carried out with both the new front belt and the existing rear belts fitted.

Is that any clearer?

Simon

chris75 · 28th December 2020, 10:44

Thanks , Simon

That answers my queries nicely , but I remain intrigued !
I wonder , do any other folk with the Sealey set have this fitting problem ?

YMGF · 28th December 2020, 11:18

Me too!
As a hypothesis, if the engine was set with the pin engaged and all belts removed it should be possible to engage tool on both sets of secondary sprockets. (If you had two tools of course!).
Then it should be possible to fit the primary belt as the inlet sprockets have the facility to turn a bit each way to get the belt to engage.
Would that not mean then that LH and RH banks were perfectly aligned and synchronised with TDC via the locking pin? (I doubt the front tools would be perfectly aligned at this point though).

I know it's turning the procedure on it's head, but it's the only way I can see that would cause everything to be in sync.

I'm not recommending this as a method of course, just to try and understand what's going on.

Michael.

25th December 2020, 11:53	#21
SD1too Doesn't do things by halves Rover 75 2.5 Connoisseur Auto (1999) Dealer launch model. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Former Middlesex Posts: 20,344 Thanks: 1,587 Thanked 3,749 Times in 3,181 Posts	Here's my Laser tool (from the same kit), bought about two and a half years ago and different again! As you can see it's screwed (the smaller diameter ring is welded). Simon __________________ "Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble." Sir Henry Royce.

27th December 2020, 08:46	#26
SD1too Doesn't do things by halves Rover 75 2.5 Connoisseur Auto (1999) Dealer launch model. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Former Middlesex Posts: 20,344 Thanks: 1,587 Thanked 3,749 Times in 3,181 Posts	Thanks for coming back to me on this Michael. I didn't fully appreciate what you were saying last time but now I do. Yes, I agree that having rotated the engine slightly to enable fitment of the rear tool on the LH bank, it should not have been necessary to rotate it again to remove the rear belt on the RH bank. That does indeed suggest that there is a discrepancy between the inlet camshaft positions on left and right hand banks. Can I check that you have the somewhat complex procedure for setting-up the primary belt tensioner pulley published by INA (and not available in RAVE or Haynes)? Simon __________________ "Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble." Sir Henry Royce.

27th December 2020, 14:50	#27
chris75 same car since 2005 2001 Rover 75 2.0 v6 Connoisseur Saloon Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ellesmere Port , Cheshire Posts: 3,811 Thanks: 379 Thanked 549 Times in 466 Posts	Apologies if I am teaching my grannie to suck eggs , but this turning the crankshaft issue has me intrigued , as I've never needed to do it . Can I ask , first of all , if we are talking about refitting the rear belts and not removing them ? Secondly , when refitting the rear sprockets it is necessary to rotate the exhaust camshaft to achieve alignment as these float free without the belt fitted and are not held by the front belt or therefore the crank ; Can I check that you tried rotating the exhaust cams before you resorted to turning the crank ? Rotating the crank will move the inlet cams , but not the exhaust if the rear belts are not fitted , and these should already be bang on if the front tools were used . __________________ Who said it was simples ?

27th December 2020, 21:59	#28
SD1too Doesn't do things by halves Rover 75 2.5 Connoisseur Auto (1999) Dealer launch model. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Former Middlesex Posts: 20,344 Thanks: 1,587 Thanked 3,749 Times in 3,181 Posts	To answer your questions Chris, we are talking about removing and refitting the rear belts. The sprocket wheels are slightly out of alignment when the flywheel/drive plate pin is fitted. This prevents the removal tool being fitted. The pin must be removed and the engine turned very slightly until the sprockets align. After that, we proceed as the book says. Regarding your second question, the slight turning of the engine is carried out with both the new front belt and the existing rear belts fitted. Is that any clearer? Simon __________________ "Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble." Sir Henry Royce.

28th December 2020, 10:44	#29
chris75 same car since 2005 2001 Rover 75 2.0 v6 Connoisseur Saloon Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ellesmere Port , Cheshire Posts: 3,811 Thanks: 379 Thanked 549 Times in 466 Posts	Thanks , Simon That answers my queries nicely , but I remain intrigued ! I wonder , do any other folk with the Sealey set have this fitting problem ? __________________ Who said it was simples ?

25th December 2020, 18:08	#22
YMGF Regular poster Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Oxford Posts: 68 Thanks: 33 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	It's like watching Darwinian theory in action!!

26th December 2020, 16:19	#23
YMGF Regular poster Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Oxford Posts: 68 Thanks: 33 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	Well, I've done the belts now. For the primary belt, locking pin in and tools fitted front and rear. Belt fitted anti-clockwise with the sprockets kept as far clockwise as possible. As noted earlier, when it came to the secondary side I did the front bank first and pin had to be removed and engine rotated slightly to enable the tool to fit. Nevertheless, belt fitted. I then came to the rear bank and expected the tool to fit without further adjustment of crankshaft. However, the tool didn't fit and another small adjustment was required. Has anyone experienced this? I'm confident the primary belt is correct and whilst inlet and exhaust on each bank are in sync, the front and rear banks are not. Albeit they are not far off, would this be a problem? Using the tools to align inlet and exhaust, there is no way I can see to get the front and rear banks perfectly synchronised.

27th December 2020, 08:00	#25
YMGF Regular poster Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Oxford Posts: 68 Thanks: 33 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	Thanks Simon, and note the point about terminology. I see your logic about the inlets being fixed on both left and right banks by the front, primary belt which was installed using tools and with locking pin installed. I'm also clear about having to move the engine position slightly to fit the tool for the secondary belt. (The left one as it happens when I did it). The bit I'm struggling to understand though is, if both inlet camshaft positions are fixed by the primary belt, why did I have to rotate the engine slightly again to fit the tool for the right hand secondary belt? I expected, (possibly wrongly!), that when the engine had been positioned to allow the tool to fit for the left hand secondary belt, it would fit directly on the right side too. If it is necessary to rotate the engine slightly to fit left and right secondary belts would that not mean the timing is also slightly different with respect to TDC for both banks? Thanks for your help on this. I think I've installed all belts correctly now but just like to get a good understanding of the mechanics too.

28th December 2020, 11:18	#30
YMGF Regular poster Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Oxford Posts: 68 Thanks: 33 Thanked 12 Times in 8 Posts	Me too! As a hypothesis, if the engine was set with the pin engaged and all belts removed it should be possible to engage tool on both sets of secondary sprockets. (If you had two tools of course!). Then it should be possible to fit the primary belt as the inlet sprockets have the facility to turn a bit each way to get the belt to engage. Would that not mean then that LH and RH banks were perfectly aligned and synchronised with TDC via the locking pin? (I doubt the front tools would be perfectly aligned at this point though). I know it's turning the procedure on it's head, but it's the only way I can see that would cause everything to be in sync. I'm not recommending this as a method of course, just to try and understand what's going on. Michael.