Laser timing tools

vitesse · 20th August 2020, 17:29

Recently struggled to get the rear belt tool from my Laser timing tools to lock on the rear sprockets properly, just seemed the angle was wrong but managed to loosen the cam bolts. As I was doing it by the book I removed both sprockets onto the bench, there the tool fitted perfectly, transfered the “assembly” back onto the keyed camshafts and as I tightened the cam bolts the tool began to slip. With the help of an assistant holding the tool I torqued up the cam bolts and re-checked the fitting, wrong angle again.
The assistant was an ex-Rover mechanic who has a similar aftermarket tool kit and says his is wonky too, the original Rover tool is much better, anyone else noticed this or can explain why on the bench it was a perfect fit, but not on the car, before and after fitting the rear belts. The mechanic has fitted dozens of timing belts to the KV6 so knows a thing or two.

Regards

chris75 · 20th August 2020, 18:50

I think a lot of people have found this ; it's as if the tool is single-use only ! When on the bench for a setup , the tool is under no strain and will sit in place quite happily , but when fitted back onto the head and a bit of rotational force is applied then the lugs won't hold in place and the tool wants to fall off.
I have the Sealey set , not the Laser , but the problem seems to be the same . My trick is to use a long wood cramp fitted along the length of the head from front to back to hold the tool in place whilst you tighten the sprockets . Doesn't need to be very tight at all , just holds it in place

I don't have any problem with misalignment , just holding the b*gger in place !

vitesse · 20th August 2020, 21:21

Sounds like my Laser set is worse than your Sealey one, as the lugs engage (just about) at an angle, and this is when removing the rear belts and yet on the bench with both sprocket removed it’s perfect.
I didn’t have a problem with keeping the assembly together as the tensioner tool helped, but then when tightening perhaps I need to copy your trick.
It’s a shame as I have recently managed to get hold of the genuine timing tools but not the rear tool but I know where there is one …

Thanks for the reply

SD1too · 21st August 2020, 10:37

Hi Mike,

Did you find that, with the flywheel/drive plate locking pin fitted, the notches on the rear sprockets didn't quite align making it difficult (or impossible) to fit the removal tool?

Simon

chris75 · 21st August 2020, 11:44

Simon , I suspect that that is a sign that last time the belts were fitted the flywheel locking pin was not used , allowing the relative positions to be slightly different to when it is used .

I am a believer that you either follow the procedure in full , or you fly free !
But don't expect the two different ways to necessarily agree with each other perfectly at a later date

Either way , it's not a big deal so long as you know how to get round it .

SD1too · 21st August 2020, 13:26

Hi Chris,

Well, my engine had never had the belts changed since it was built at the factory and my rear sprocket notches didn't line up with the drive plate locking pin inserted. What do you make of that?

I absolutely agree with you about following the procedure in full, but I had no choice but to turn the engine very slightly (as others have done successfully) because the rear sprocket removal tool just couldn't be used unless I did. The alternative would appear to be to move the positions of both inlet and exhaust camshafts so that the rear notches do align. This would alter the valve timing from the settings which had been fine for 19 years so I was very reluctant to choose that option. My decision seems to have been correct since the engine starts instantly and runs perfectly.

Did you not have to do this on your 2.0 litre then?

Simon

vitesse · 21st August 2020, 13:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD1too

Hi Mike,

Did you find that, with the flywheel/drive plate locking pin fitted, the notches on the rear sprockets didn't quite align making it difficult (or impossible) to fit the removal tool?

Simon

Couldn't use the locking pin on the car as I suspect someone had made a mistake earlier and whatever they used had sheared off. With some stiff stainless wire I found a depression where the pin should have gone but there was no hole so just used the "safe" mark instead. My tutor, an ex-Rover mechanic, said it wasn't the first time he'd seen someone forgetting the pin and starting the engine - he once had to replace an autobox after another garage did the same.

Anyway happy days today as I now have the original 12-175 rear belt tool recovered from a closed down Rover dealer in town. My set is now complete and I can offer the Laser tools at a cheap price to someone who can perhaps re-work the tool.

Mike

chris75 · 21st August 2020, 14:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by vitesse

Anyway happy days today as I now have the original 12-175 rear belt tool recovered from a closed down Rover dealer in town. My set is now complete and I can offer the Laser tools at a cheap price to someone who can perhaps re-work the tool.

Mike

Would love to see a picture of the two tools to see the difference in the lugs , if possible ? Does the factory tool look significantly better-made ?

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD1too

Hi Chris,

Well, my engine had never had the belts changed since it was built at the factory and my rear sprocket notches didn't line up with the drive plate locking pin inserted. What do you make of that?

Did you not have to do this on your 2.0 litre then?

Simon

Just a thought , but I wonder if the rear belts had stretched much to allow a little misalignment . I have removed a few and they were all a bit "slack" ! It is often possible to twist the exhaust cam a bit , with the belts still on , to allow a little bit of realignment . All depends how big the problem is

And no , I have replaced the belts on my 2.0 litre at 6 yrs , 12 years and 18 yrs (roughly ) and again when I took the heads off to replace the valve stem oils seals and never encountered the misalignment problem

I did encounter a bit of an issue on a friend's car , which is when I found you could get a little bit of movement on the exhaust cam , which proved to be enough .
It's fun , isn't it

vitesse · 21st August 2020, 16:29

Your wish ...

The factory tool is very much more substantial and weighs about five times as much as the Laser. It's in welded sections so would guess it was welded on a jig of some sort.

Thought I could now get rid of the Laser set but need 18G1747-4 (tool for rotating the camshaft) if I do. Anyone got a spare?

Regards

chris75 · 21st August 2020, 18:12

Can't be sure from a photo , but is the Laser tool bent ?
The face of the small ring looks like it may not be parallel with the face of the big one

Re the missing laser tool , in the Sealey set that one you quote is built in to the end of the camshaft locking tool and is not supplied separate . I suspect the Laser set is the same ?
https://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/4577

20th August 2020, 17:29	#1
vitesse I really should get out more....... Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Gävle Posts: 2,531 Thanks: 395 Thanked 823 Times in 652 Posts	Laser timing tools Recently struggled to get the rear belt tool from my Laser timing tools to lock on the rear sprockets properly, just seemed the angle was wrong but managed to loosen the cam bolts. As I was doing it by the book I removed both sprockets onto the bench, there the tool fitted perfectly, transfered the “assembly” back onto the keyed camshafts and as I tightened the cam bolts the tool began to slip. With the help of an assistant holding the tool I torqued up the cam bolts and re-checked the fitting, wrong angle again. The assistant was an ex-Rover mechanic who has a similar aftermarket tool kit and says his is wonky too, the original Rover tool is much better, anyone else noticed this or can explain why on the bench it was a perfect fit, but not on the car, before and after fitting the rear belts. The mechanic has fitted dozens of timing belts to the KV6 so knows a thing or two. Regards

20th August 2020, 18:50	#2
chris75 same car since 2005 2001 Rover 75 2.0 v6 Connoisseur Saloon Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ellesmere Port , Cheshire Posts: 3,811 Thanks: 379 Thanked 549 Times in 466 Posts	I think a lot of people have found this ; it's as if the tool is single-use only ! When on the bench for a setup , the tool is under no strain and will sit in place quite happily , but when fitted back onto the head and a bit of rotational force is applied then the lugs won't hold in place and the tool wants to fall off. I have the Sealey set , not the Laser , but the problem seems to be the same . My trick is to use a long wood cramp fitted along the length of the head from front to back to hold the tool in place whilst you tighten the sprockets . Doesn't need to be very tight at all , just holds it in place I don't have any problem with misalignment , just holding the bgger in place ! __________________ Who said it was simples ? Last edited by chris75; 20th August 2020 at 20:15..*

21st August 2020, 10:37	#4
SD1too Doesn't do things by halves Rover 75 2.5 Connoisseur Auto (1999) Dealer launch model. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Former Middlesex Posts: 20,366 Thanks: 1,587 Thanked 3,749 Times in 3,181 Posts	Hi Mike, Did you find that, with the flywheel/drive plate locking pin fitted, the notches on the rear sprockets didn't quite align making it difficult (or impossible) to fit the removal tool? Simon __________________ "Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble." Sir Henry Royce.

21st August 2020, 11:44	#5
chris75 same car since 2005 2001 Rover 75 2.0 v6 Connoisseur Saloon Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ellesmere Port , Cheshire Posts: 3,811 Thanks: 379 Thanked 549 Times in 466 Posts	Simon , I suspect that that is a sign that last time the belts were fitted the flywheel locking pin was not used , allowing the relative positions to be slightly different to when it is used . I am a believer that you either follow the procedure in full , or you fly free ! But don't expect the two different ways to necessarily agree with each other perfectly at a later date Either way , it's not a big deal so long as you know how to get round it . __________________ Who said it was simples ?

21st August 2020, 13:26	#6
SD1too Doesn't do things by halves Rover 75 2.5 Connoisseur Auto (1999) Dealer launch model. Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Former Middlesex Posts: 20,366 Thanks: 1,587 Thanked 3,749 Times in 3,181 Posts	Hi Chris, Well, my engine had never had the belts changed since it was built at the factory and my rear sprocket notches didn't line up with the drive plate locking pin inserted. What do you make of that? I absolutely agree with you about following the procedure in full, but I had no choice but to turn the engine very slightly (as others have done successfully) because the rear sprocket removal tool just couldn't be used unless I did. The alternative would appear to be to move the positions of both inlet and exhaust camshafts so that the rear notches do align. This would alter the valve timing from the settings which had been fine for 19 years so I was very reluctant to choose that option. My decision seems to have been correct since the engine starts instantly and runs perfectly. Did you not have to do this on your 2.0 litre then? Simon __________________ "Whatever is rightly done, however humble, is noble." Sir Henry Royce.

20th August 2020, 21:21	#3
vitesse I really should get out more....... Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Gävle Posts: 2,531 Thanks: 395 Thanked 823 Times in 652 Posts	Sounds like my Laser set is worse than your Sealey one, as the lugs engage (just about) at an angle, and this is when removing the rear belts and yet on the bench with both sprocket removed it’s perfect. I didn’t have a problem with keeping the assembly together as the tensioner tool helped, but then when tightening perhaps I need to copy your trick. It’s a shame as I have recently managed to get hold of the genuine timing tools but not the rear tool but I know where there is one … Thanks for the reply

21st August 2020, 16:29	#9
vitesse I really should get out more....... Rover 75 Saloon Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Gävle Posts: 2,531 Thanks: 395 Thanked 823 Times in 652 Posts	Your wish ... The factory tool is very much more substantial and weighs about five times as much as the Laser. It's in welded sections so would guess it was welded on a jig of some sort. Thought I could now get rid of the Laser set but need 18G1747-4 (tool for rotating the camshaft) if I do. Anyone got a spare? Regards

21st August 2020, 18:12	#10
chris75 same car since 2005 2001 Rover 75 2.0 v6 Connoisseur Saloon Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Ellesmere Port , Cheshire Posts: 3,811 Thanks: 379 Thanked 549 Times in 466 Posts	Can't be sure from a photo , but is the Laser tool bent ? The face of the small ring looks like it may not be parallel with the face of the big one Re the missing laser tool , in the Sealey set that one you quote is built in to the end of the camshaft locking tool and is not supplied separate . I suspect the Laser set is the same ? https://www.lasertools.co.uk/product/4577 __________________ Who said it was simples ? Last edited by chris75; 21st August 2020 at 18:31..