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Old 12th January 2021, 21:27   #51
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Now both women have had the fines cancelled. There are no rules on how far you can travel to do exercise, and they were observing social distancing whilst doing so, They have received an apology from Derby-shire Police.
The chief of police was on the tele.---He said his men were told to use their discretion.---Obviously they don't have any.----
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Old 12th January 2021, 21:55   #52
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Using discretion means making decisions and with a relative lack of guidance some decisions will be wrong viewed with the benefit of hindsight. I know I don't always make a right decision, so it's likely policemen do too. To err is human.
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Old 12th January 2021, 21:58   #53
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I suspect that the reason a particular distance was not mentioned in the guidelines is that the government ran up against the same issues as we've been debating, how long is a piece of string.
However what they are trying to achieve is to limit leisure mobility in an effort to reduce transmission where suitable areas for exercise are closer at hand. This is not necessary activity, like going to work, collecting prescriptions, getting food, attending a hospital etc. There is no restriction on them, although in the spirit of the times you should limit mileage if possible.
Maybe there should be a mandatory limit of 5 miles, say, and if you're questioned by the police it's up to the officer whether to accept your justification or not. If you feel a fine wasn't warranted then an appeal would be available.
That would probably be acceptable to most people, but there will always be those who won't agree. Johnson and his 7 miles being one of them. Actually to the edge of the park it's nearer 6 miles to No 10.
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The chief of police was on the tele.---He said his men were told to use their discretion.---Obviously they don't have any.----

Discretion:

  1. the quality of behaving or speaking in such a way as to avoid causing offence or revealing confidential information.
  2. the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
I'm betting that they did use their discretion [2], However what the chief meant (in hindsight only) was to ensure they didn't cause offence or reveal any confidential information [1].
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Old 13th January 2021, 00:58   #54
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I'd say nothing at all, you never know when you might need a hand with something

In regard to the other stuff, well let them get on with it, it would pay to remember you will still have to live there, and after making a nuisance compliant it might be a less than pleasant situation dealing with the fallout.

In respect of possible breaches of Covid "rules" along with their application and enforcement, I'm sure if there are others around who are not happy with the situation, then leave it to them to take your neighbour's son and his friend to task over it.

Anyway as an aside to all of this, I was pulled over by the police last evening on the way home and asked what the purpose of my journey was.

The police officer commented that my car number had been pinged as I had travelled into Newcastle city centre, then pinged again as I left shortly afterwards.

He went on to say that in light of this, he had travelled from the west area command (about four miles) specifically to question me

I asked him what relevance my journey was to warrant such an action? his reply was Covid restrictions, then demanded to know why I was apparently becoming belligerent in light of his questions.

You can picture the look on his face when I told him that the purpose of my journey was to pick up my wife from her place of work at the hospital, and that his time might be better spent employed usefully like her, and having just completed a 13 hour shift dealing with Covid patients, she was looking forward to her tea !!

I was fizzing at the absolute waste of resources by someone who was obviously bored

Interpretation of "rules" is fine, squandering the goodwill of the public is not.

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Old 13th January 2021, 23:08   #55
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The chief of police was on the tele.---He said his men were told to use their discretion.---Obviously they don't have any.----
err, yes they do and they used it, they fined the women!
Discretion = the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
post 53 has another example of discretion

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Old 14th January 2021, 00:38   #56
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err, yes they do and they used it, they fined the women!
Discretion = the freedom to decide what should be done in a particular situation.
post 53 has another example of discretion

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Subsequent events proved them to be a pair of dumbos.--They wouldn't recognise common sense if it bit them. And frequently buffoons like that tell us what to do.--- The dunces hats are in the corner officers.--
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Old 14th January 2021, 10:23   #57
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Subsequent events proved them to be a pair of dumbos.--They wouldn't recognise common sense if it bit them. And frequently buffoons like that tell us what to do.--- The dunces hats are in the corner officers.--
I find it interesting that the same Police Force here was also found wanting at the start of all this when they sent up Drones to film dog walkers then posted the videos on YouTube. This lead to a retired Supreme Court Judge saying:-

“ The behaviour of the Derbyshire police in trying to shame people using their undoubted right to take exercise in the country and wrecking beauty spots in the fells so people don’t want to go there is frankly disgraceful. This is what a police state is like, it is a state in which a government can issue orders or express preferences with no legal authority and the police will enforce ministers wishes”

It was revealed on the Today Programme R4 that Derbyshire Police had been dying the usually blue waters of Harpur Hill Quarry black to deter visitors.

I would take issue with his words re “Ministers Wishes” because Ministers have issued guidelines and most Police Forces have done their upmost to “engage” with people before taking action.

Derbyshire Police seem to be the exception.

In contrast our Hampshire and Dorset Police have been in local car parks basically chatting and warning people. From what I understand people’s experience has been good.

Dorset Police “engaged” three times with an idiot student at Bournmouth University over his organising parties and finally on the third repeat- he got a £10,000 fine and booted out of the University. That to me is common sense.

What is not common sense is the thousands of people flocking to Bournmouth Beaches as they did in the summer months. That was not sensible at all and the disgusting waste they left behind was appalling.

So “Common Sense” works in both directions and from all sides.

On a broader issue - whereas I think my two local police forces have acted with admirable common sense - the same cannot be said of Derbyshire Police.

If I was a Derbyshire resident I would be concerned at just how willing the Police Force there was to act like a totalitarian arbiter rather than policing “by consent”
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:05   #58
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There are three ways this can go.

If the police take a soft approach there will always be people, like the uni student, who will try and exploit that softness and quite possibly end up using up much more police time and resource than if they'd clamped down early. The majority of people will support the police but a significant proportion will just regard them as weak and ineffective.

A second possibility is that people think that if they trample the blurred edges of restrictions and get a fine, it will be withdrawn if they create a social media stink, so they push the boundaries more and more. This leads to a reduction in compliance and respect for the police.

Another is that because the police take a hard line fewer people are tempted to push at the boundaries and compliance with guidelines is reinforced. Those directly affected by police action may not be happy but most would feel they were being protected,
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Old 14th January 2021, 11:14   #59
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Originally Posted by Darcydog View Post
I find it interesting that the same Police Force here was also found wanting at the start of all this when they sent up Drones to film dog walkers then posted the videos on YouTube. This lead to a retired Supreme Court Judge saying:-

“ The behaviour of the Derbyshire police in trying to shame people using their undoubted right to take exercise in the country and wrecking beauty spots in the fells so people don’t want to go there is frankly disgraceful. This is what a police state is like, it is a state in which a government can issue orders or express preferences with no legal authority and the police will enforce ministers wishes”

It was revealed on the Today Programme R4 that Derbyshire Police had been dying the usually blue waters of Harpur Hill Quarry black to deter visitors.

I would take issue with his words re “Ministers Wishes” because Ministers have issued guidelines and most Police Forces have done their upmost to “engage” with people before taking action.

Derbyshire Police seem to be the exception.

In contrast our Hampshire and Dorset Police have been in local car parks basically chatting and warning people. From what I understand people’s experience has been good.

Dorset Police “engaged” three times with an idiot student at Bournmouth University over his organising parties and finally on the third repeat- he got a £10,000 fine and booted out of the University. That to me is common sense.

What is not common sense is the thousands of people flocking to Bournmouth Beaches as they did in the summer months. That was not sensible at all and the disgusting waste they left behind was appalling.

So “Common Sense” works in both directions and from all sides.

On a broader issue - whereas I think my two local police forces have acted with admirable common sense - the same cannot be said of Derbyshire Police.

If I was a Derbyshire resident I would be concerned at just how willing the Police Force there was to act like a totalitarian arbiter rather than policing “by consent”

I think the fines have been rescinded and the force and officers slated. Do you think it has helped get members of the public to comply with the rules or led to more pushing the boundaries?

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Old 14th January 2021, 11:28   #60
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And, of course, policing by consent means the consent of the majority, not the minority who commit offences.
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