Go Back   The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums > The 75 and ZT Owners Club Forums > The 75 and ZT Owners Club General Forum
Register FAQ Image Gallery Members List Calendar Mark Forums Read
Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 23rd October 2020, 08:22   #1
Saga Lout
This is my second home
 
MG ZT and Rover 75,

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Wigan
Posts: 3,276
Thanks: 2,556
Thanked 2,685 Times in 1,037 Posts
Default V6 Inlet Manifold Opened.

I have some rattling V6 Inlet manifolds lying around and curiosity got the better of me. I opened one up to try to understand the problems a little better, what a can of worms we face in the future. The picture one shows the butterflies in the open position, picture two shows the operating rod in position and that's where all our problems come from, the axles that the butterflies are on are hard plastic in a hard plastic carrier, the pictures three and four show the kind of wear I've described, not all of them seem to wear but the ones nearest the vis motor do wear a lot. The carriers are sonic welded on to the manifold rather like a crown being placed. I'd say it's very possible to remove them and swap bad ones for good ones, they wear out the axle and carriers and go very baggy, it seems that this then puts a strain on the operating shaft and, the areas where it clips on to the butterflies elongates and then simply falls off, this results in the butterfly just flapping around. The last picture shows an elongated hole and the shaft is nothing but scrap, it's made from hard plastic and wears badly. I reckon the only way to get round this problem is a new type of shaft and find a way to bush the axle holes for the butterflies, if we can't solve this then all manifolds will end up scrap at some point, I do think regular oil changes will help but not enough in the long term.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 20201021_155000 - Copy.jpg (131.1 KB, 108 views)
File Type: jpg 20201021_155053 - Copy.jpg (130.8 KB, 103 views)
File Type: jpg 20201021_155304 - Copy.jpg (82.4 KB, 99 views)
File Type: jpg 20201021_155353 - Copy.jpg (90.7 KB, 96 views)
File Type: jpg 20201021_155503 - Copy.jpg (105.8 KB, 94 views)

Last edited by Saga Lout; 23rd October 2020 at 08:24..
Saga Lout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 08:42   #2
T-Cut
This is my second home
 
Rover75 and Mreg Corsa.

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sumweer onat mote o'dust (Sagin)
Posts: 21,751
Thanks: 341
Thanked 3,660 Times in 2,924 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saga Lout View Post
I reckon the only way to get round this problem is a new type of shaft and find a way to bush the axle holes for the butterflies
Could the sawn-off sections be re-joined OK?


TC
T-Cut is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 09:11   #3
Synchromesh
Gets stuck in
 
Rover 75 Saloon

Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Preston
Posts: 624
Thanks: 50
Thanked 44 Times in 32 Posts
Default

It looks like the operating shaft does not have a proper support to take its weight so the butterfly spindles and ball joints are supporting the weight of the operating shaft.
Synchromesh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 10:14   #4
TramPower4000
Newbie
 
Rover 75 Saloon

Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Posts: 28
Thanks: 18
Thanked 7 Times in 3 Posts
Default

What about regularly adding an upper cylinder lubricant to the fuel? Expensive over time, but was recommended to me by a Land Rover service center.
TramPower4000 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 11:25   #5
edwardmk
Gets stuck in
 
edwardmk's Avatar
 
MG ZT 260, Rover 75 Connie SE auto

Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Redruth
Posts: 982
Thanks: 1,324
Thanked 399 Times in 271 Posts
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Saga Lout View Post
I have some rattling V6 Inlet manifolds lying around and curiosity got the better of me. I opened one up to try to understand the problems a little better, what a can of worms we face in the future. The picture one shows the butterflies in the open position, picture two shows the operating rod in position and that's where all our problems come from, the axles that the butterflies are on are hard plastic in a hard plastic carrier, the pictures three and four show the kind of wear I've described, not all of them seem to wear but the ones nearest the vis motor do wear a lot. The carriers are sonic welded on to the manifold rather like a crown being placed. I'd say it's very possible to remove them and swap bad ones for good ones, they wear out the axle and carriers and go very baggy, it seems that this then puts a strain on the operating shaft and, the areas where it clips on to the butterflies elongates and then simply falls off, this results in the butterfly just flapping around. The last picture shows an elongated hole and the shaft is nothing but scrap, it's made from hard plastic and wears badly. I reckon the only way to get round this problem is a new type of shaft and find a way to bush the axle holes for the butterflies, if we can't solve this then all manifolds will end up scrap at some point, I do think regular oil changes will help but not enough in the long term.
Those pics are gold to someone like me. I bought the 190 that Rick saved from the scrappie and plan to continue the work needed to keep her running properly. I'm sure I'm going to be looking at the inlet manifolds at some point with 140k miles on the meter. I can see from those pics how having 6 flappy butterfly valves must wreak havoc with the mixture. My V8 is more economical than the V6 at the moment. There is definitely work to be done. Tickover when the engine is warm is too high, and when coasting it ranges between 1k to 2k revs intermittently. I can see Rick did a lot of work replacing vacuum lines ( amongst many other things...all good ). I'm in the process of re purposing a disco smoke machine to run some smoke tests on the whole inlet system. Any and all advice very welcome as always.
edwardmk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 13:45   #6
Gazmo65
Loves to post
 
Gazmo65's Avatar
 
Volvo S80

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Burton Latimer
Posts: 268
Thanks: 11
Thanked 39 Times in 20 Posts
Default

A chap on another forum , I can't remember his name, but the forum was X Power actually didsome research and was going to do repair kits with metal replacements , he had a couple of mock ups and a finished item that he was trialing but I don't know what happe ed as he stopped posting and I haven't been on the forum for a year or so, might be worth checking out again
Gazmo65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 14:12   #7
Gazmo65
Loves to post
 
Gazmo65's Avatar
 
Volvo S80

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Burton Latimer
Posts: 268
Thanks: 11
Thanked 39 Times in 20 Posts
Default

Just checked on the Xpower forum and the chaps user name was Sheddist the article was back in 2010, but its worth a look as it has some pictures and is a clever design, he was going to sell them but suddenly stopped posting, the article is under Reparing inlet manifold KV6 article, try this link
repairing inlet manifold kv6 https://forums.xpowerforums.com/showthread.php?t=54886

Last edited by Gazmo65; 23rd October 2020 at 14:13.. Reason: speeling
Gazmo65 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 15:52   #8
Saga Lout
This is my second home
 
MG ZT and Rover 75,

Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Wigan
Posts: 3,276
Thanks: 2,556
Thanked 2,685 Times in 1,037 Posts
Default But...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gazmo65 View Post
Just checked on the Xpower forum and the chaps user name was Sheddist the article was back in 2010, but its worth a look as it has some pictures and is a clever design, he was going to sell them but suddenly stopped posting, the article is under Reparing inlet manifold KV6 article, try this link
repairing inlet manifold kv6 https://forums.xpowerforums.com/showthread.php?t=54886
I've looked at his design and it has a major flaw in it, the butterfly axles are still rotating in the plastic housing, so they are still wearing out there and that's where the rattles come from. I've been thinking it out for a couple of days and I do have the answer but I'll need to knock one up and try it on my V6. In 2010 I suspect that the wear on the butterflies and spindles wouldn't be too great, in 2020 it's likely to be the major issue with repairs.
Saga Lout is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd October 2020, 17:44   #9
minty2
Loves to post
 
Rover 75 Tourer

Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Leeds
Posts: 494
Thanks: 68
Thanked 76 Times in 43 Posts
Default

I recall seeing notice of a complete replacement for the existing mechanism in development, piggy-backing off the VIZ-controlled system somehow and on this site I think. That was a few years back and not seen or heard anything since.
minty2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 24th October 2020, 11:48   #10
Arctic
Give to Learn
 
Arctic's Avatar
 
Freelander 2

Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: West Midlands
Posts: 18,651
Thanks: 1,155
Thanked 6,407 Times in 3,874 Posts
Default

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saga Lout View Post
I have some rattling V6 Inlet manifolds lying around and curiosity got the better of me. I opened one up to try to understand the problems a little better, what a can of worms we face in the future. The picture one shows the butterflies in the open position, picture two shows the operating rod in position and that's where all our problems come from, the axles that the butterflies are on are hard plastic in a hard plastic carrier, the pictures three and four show the kind of wear I've described, not all of them seem to wear but the ones nearest the vis motor do wear a lot. The carriers are sonic welded on to the manifold rather like a crown being placed. I'd say it's very possible to remove them and swap bad ones for good ones, they wear out the axle and carriers and go very baggy, it seems that this then puts a strain on the operating shaft and, the areas where it clips on to the butterflies elongates and then simply falls off, this results in the butterfly just flapping around. The last picture shows an elongated hole and the shaft is nothing but scrap, it's made from hard plastic and wears badly. I reckon the only way to get round this problem is a new type of shaft and find a way to bush the axle holes for the butterflies, if we can't solve this then all manifolds will end up scrap at some point, I do think regular oil changes will help but not enough in the long term.

Hi Michael.
I opened one back in 2014 after changing it due to the death rattle photos below of what i found inside.
1

2

3

4

5

6

You can see how the sockets to the ball have broken, where do these broken bits go? into the engine i presume.

7

You can see below how they go brittle and break off.
8

9

10

11

12

here you can see how the oil gums up the flaps, i have just removed mine from my FL2 which is easy compared to the 190 V6 manifolds.
13
__________________
Arctic
Givology Learn to Give
Everything is Achievable

ad altiora tendo.

Check out our Nano meet dates
http://www.midlandsnanomeets.co.uk/

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/index.php?thepage=howto

" You do the work , we supply the expertise "
Arctic is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 17:42.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright © 2006-2023, The Rover 75 & MG ZT Owners Club Ltd