Worried about airbags?

[madeupname]

On a thread some time ago I asked a question about whether airbags 'knew' the position of a driver with relation to how much an airbag inflates.
I also wondered about replacing airbags after 10 years.
Does the fabric rot over time?
Does the gas that inflates them need recharging?
Why renew airbags?
Well this morning I got up early and, as you do, started pondering these questions again.
Yes I know, I lead a very sad life!

Anyway a quick Yahoo search came up with this article. It is on an American site by Peter Bigelow, but should nonetheless apply to our cars too.

Thirty pages deep in a beaten-up vehicle's owner's manual, there's a curious warning about aging airbags.
It reads: "To ensure long-term functioning, the system must be inspected 10 years after the date of manufacture as noted on the certification label."
In this case, the manual belongs to a 15-year-old Nissan Altima. Similar warnings recommending airbag inspections appear in the owner's manuals of dozens of older-model cars.
A small handful even recommend replacing airbags after a decade.
Given that most car owners don't make a habit of scrutinizing their owner's manuals, especially after a decade or more of ownership, these airbag warnings can be overlooked.
But they're important, and following the advisories could prevent these life-saving devices from malfunctioning in an accident.
More cars than ever might be in need of such inspections. The average age of a car on the road in the U.S. today is 11.2 years, the oldest average age of the American fleet ever,
according to Polk, an automotive forecasting company.
Replacing an airbag is, at a cost of at least $1,000 per frontal airbag, almost an unheard of practice, especially considering older cars have diminished value.
For consumers who are concerned, an inspection may at least give them more information on the condition of their airbag system.
"Some of the manufacturers talk about replacing them from the mid-90s or older," said Mike Calkins, manager of technical service for AAA's automotive engineering department.
"If people are concerned, they should talk to their dealer."
When the warnings were first written, manufacturers weren't sure how their airbags would age. Components can degrade over time. Moisture can penetrate sealed components and
affect the powder used to ignite the explosions that fill airbags with gas.
From start to finish, an airbag deployment should take 30 to 40 milliseconds, but compromised powder can delay -- or prevent -- that rapid response.
Even in an inspection, it can be almost impossible for mechanics to determine how an airbag will perform. Testing it would render it useless.
A more common problem that occurs over time -- one mechanics can both test for and fix -- is that electrical wires become corroded.

"Most of the problems that have cropped up are dirty connections and not in the airbag itself," Caulkins said. "And if they do get corroded, that should turn your airbag light on,
and you take it in, the connections are cleaned and everything is fine."
Airbags were first introduced to cars in the 1970s. No one was quite sure how they would age. In 1992, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety conducted one of the first tests of
the technology, driving a rusty 1972 Chevrolet Impala into a barrier at 25 miles per hour. The car had no working clock, no working radio and more than 100,000 miles on its odometer.
It was one of the first 1,000 cars equipped with an airbag that General Motors had produced.
The airbags worked.
They "might have been the most reliable part of this old car," said Brian O'Neill, who was then president of IIHS.
Airbags evolved over time, as manufacturers learned children and small-statured adults could be injured or killed by the high intensity of airbag inflation.
More than 290 people, including 191 children, were killed by airbags between 1990 and 2008, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
By comparison, however, NHTSA says frontal airbags saved 25,782 lives between 1987 and 2008.
Curiously, the safety evolution of airbags may have changed in 2008. That's when NHTSA mandated changes to airbags that made manufacturers start using
'Certified as Advanced and Compliant (CAC)' airbags that contained features that measure occupant size and seat position, which enabled airbag systems to tailor impact severity
and deployment strength to changing situations.
A study released by the IIHS this month suggests these more advanced airbags may have mixed results. Drivers using a seatbelt are actually more likely to die with the
advanced technology. IIHS researchers found a 2 percent increase in death for belted drivers compared to drivers involved in accidents using the previous generation airbags.
But the new CAC airbags have resulted in a 26 percent decrease in death for drivers who don't use their seatbelts.
"To some extent, it worked, but I don't think anybody envisioned a trade-off," said Joe Nolan, vice president of research at IIHS. "We're continuing to study this,
because the belted population makes up the majority of drivers in this country."
Neither IIHS nor AAA recommend that owners replace un-deployed airbags on older-model cars. A bigger concern, they say, is if airbags deploy in a crash,
they should be replaced with parts directly from the manufacturer, and not with a used airbag.
"We recommend they get the OEM equipment when possible," Nolan said. "Technically, there's nothing wrong with a used airbag as long as it's retrieved properly.
Theoretically, there should be no problem using it. The trouble is there's no tell-tale sign to determine whether damage might have occurred."


So there we have it. Hope this helps

[Caskin]

Originally Posted by madeupname

On a thread some time ago I asked a question about whether airbags 'knew' the position of a driver with relation to how much an airbag inflates.
I also wondered about replacing airbags after 10 years.
Does the fabric rot over time?
Does the gas that inflates them need recharging?
Why renew airbags?
Well this morning I got up early and, as you do, started pondering these questions again.
Yes I know, I lead a very sad life!

Anyway a quick Yahoo search came up with this article. It is on an American site by Peter Bigelow, but should nonetheless apply to our cars too.

Thirty pages deep in a beaten-up vehicle's owner's manual, there's a curious warning about aging airbags.
It reads: "To ensure long-term functioning, the system must be inspected 10 years after the date of manufacture as noted on the certification label."
In this case, the manual belongs to a 15-year-old Nissan Altima. Similar warnings recommending airbag inspections appear in the owner's manuals of dozens of older-model cars.
A small handful even recommend replacing airbags after a decade.
Given that most car owners don't make a habit of scrutinizing their owner's manuals, especially after a decade or more of ownership, these airbag warnings can be overlooked.
But they're important, and following the advisories could prevent these life-saving devices from malfunctioning in an accident.
More cars than ever might be in need of such inspections. The average age of a car on the road in the U.S. today is 11.2 years, the oldest average age of the American fleet ever,
according to Polk, an automotive forecasting company.
Replacing an airbag is, at a cost of at least $1,000 per frontal airbag, almost an unheard of practice, especially considering older cars have diminished value.
For consumers who are concerned, an inspection may at least give them more information on the condition of their airbag system.
"Some of the manufacturers talk about replacing them from the mid-90s or older," said Mike Calkins, manager of technical service for AAA's automotive engineering department.
"If people are concerned, they should talk to their dealer."
When the warnings were first written, manufacturers weren't sure how their airbags would age. Components can degrade over time. Moisture can penetrate sealed components and
affect the powder used to ignite the explosions that fill airbags with gas.
From start to finish, an airbag deployment should take 30 to 40 milliseconds, but compromised powder can delay -- or prevent -- that rapid response.
Even in an inspection, it can be almost impossible for mechanics to determine how an airbag will perform. Testing it would render it useless.
A more common problem that occurs over time -- one mechanics can both test for and fix -- is that electrical wires become corroded.

"Most of the problems that have cropped up are dirty connections and not in the airbag itself," Caulkins said. "And if they do get corroded, that should turn your airbag light on,
and you take it in, the connections are cleaned and everything is fine."
Airbags were first introduced to cars in the 1970s. No one was quite sure how they would age. In 1992, the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety conducted one of the first tests of
the technology, driving a rusty 1972 Chevrolet Impala into a barrier at 25 miles per hour. The car had no working clock, no working radio and more than 100,000 miles on its odometer.
It was one of the first 1,000 cars equipped with an airbag that General Motors had produced.
The airbags worked.
They "might have been the most reliable part of this old car," said Brian O'Neill, who was then president of IIHS.
Airbags evolved over time, as manufacturers learned children and small-statured adults could be injured or killed by the high intensity of airbag inflation.
More than 290 people, including 191 children, were killed by airbags between 1990 and 2008, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration.
By comparison, however, NHTSA says frontal airbags saved 25,782 lives between 1987 and 2008.
Curiously, the safety evolution of airbags may have changed in 2008. That's when NHTSA mandated changes to airbags that made manufacturers start using
'Certified as Advanced and Compliant (CAC)' airbags that contained features that measure occupant size and seat position, which enabled airbag systems to tailor impact severity
and deployment strength to changing situations.
A study released by the IIHS this month suggests these more advanced airbags may have mixed results. Drivers using a seatbelt are actually more likely to die with the
advanced technology. IIHS researchers found a 2 percent increase in death for belted drivers compared to drivers involved in accidents using the previous generation airbags.
But the new CAC airbags have resulted in a 26 percent decrease in death for drivers who don't use their seatbelts.
"To some extent, it worked, but I don't think anybody envisioned a trade-off," said Joe Nolan, vice president of research at IIHS. "We're continuing to study this,
because the belted population makes up the majority of drivers in this country."
Neither IIHS nor AAA recommend that owners replace un-deployed airbags on older-model cars. A bigger concern, they say, is if airbags deploy in a crash,
they should be replaced with parts directly from the manufacturer, and not with a used airbag.
"We recommend they get the OEM equipment when possible," Nolan said. "Technically, there's nothing wrong with a used airbag as long as it's retrieved properly.
Theoretically, there should be no problem using it. The trouble is there's no tell-tale sign to determine whether damage might have occurred."


So there we have it. Hope this helps

Page 31(Owner) :After 15yrs from the initial date of registration or replacement some components will require replacing by MG/Rover dealer.
Page 17 (Service):After 15yrs all airbag modules plus seat belt pretensions MUST be replaced.
All work relating to same as well as recalls will be found on page 15-19!!!
I wonder how many of us will find any work recorded in that section.
So there you have it my friend,15yrs!!!

[madeupname]

" Page 31(Owner) :After 15yrs from the initial date of registration or replacement some components will require replacing by MG/Rover dealer.
Page 17 (Service):After 15yrs all airbag modules plus seat belt pretensions MUST be replaced.
All work relating to same as well as recalls will be found on page 15-19!!!
I wonder how many of us will find any work recorded in that section.
So there you have it my friend,15yrs!!! "

So where did I get 10 years from? I've looked in the owners manual and it's 15. The Haynes manual, as much as I have read anyway, doesn't say anything. I must dream out loud sometimes I guess
I think what we can take from the article I found though is that provided the wiring and connectors haven't corroded, AirBags will probably work through the lifetime of the vehicle.
But just to be on the safe side, are their any modern day airbags that can replace ours?
That's the next question

[Christopher Price]

Originally Posted by Caskin

Page 31(Owner) :After 15yrs from the initial date of registration or replacement some components will require replacing by MG/Rover dealer.
Page 17 (Service):After 15yrs all airbag modules plus seat belt pretensions MUST be replaced.
All work relating to same as well as recalls will be found on page 15-19!!!
I wonder how many of us will find any work recorded in that section.
So there you have it my friend,15yrs!!!

Sadly, this'll probably how the Government take old cars off the road, by insisting such work becomes part of the MOT.

[Caskin]

Originally Posted by Christopher Price

Sadly, this'll probably how the Government take old cars off the road, by insisting such work becomes part of the MOT.

I'll get shot for saying this,but it is not difficult to amend/include a new date on airbags, as well as service booklet????depends UPON OWNER,PLUS WHERE DO YOU OBTAIN REPLACEMENTS THAT ONE COULD AFFORD??

equally there are many 75.s over 15yrs old still running around unaware of these facts, equally my MOT garage would not have a clue!!!

[kaiser]

My airbags will get switched off.
I have lived a life full of cars without airbags, and so far, so good.

Might be nice to have, but life was also lived before they arrived on the scene.

I have had airbags in a Rover going off owing to the sump hitting a stone (actually touching (bottoming out on) a flat stone the size of a burger patty). That should not happen.
So for me, no more air bags. Could have smashed my face, but luckily only went off in the chair and the curtain.

[shenderson]

Perhaps I can add something here as I worked as a vehicle safety engineer at Rovergroup in its later guises and I recall the issue of aging airbags coming up. The airbag systems had a design life of 10 years - the came as the cars. That means that everything should perform as normal for at least 10 years in all climates for which the car was designed. From memory, the design temperature range was something like -20 to +40 C and there would also have been a high humidity specification.

Originally, the vehicle handbooks advised replacing the airbags after 10 years service, because they were not designed to last any longer and, as such, could not be guaranteed to perform correctly. The concern was not so much that they would fail to deploy, but that they might deploy more slowly than designed, thus not providing optimal restraint. However towards the end of the 90's, the first Rovergroup cars to be equipped with airbags were coming up to 10 years old and customers started enquiring about replacing airbags. For a twin airbag system, the cost could exceed £1000, probably more than the market value of the car at that stage. This was an industry wide issue and the airbag suppliers were put to work. They did a lot of test and simulation work until they were able to confirm that the airbags should be good for 15 years, so the advice subsequently given in the handbooks reflected this. Later airbag designs have a design life of 15 years.

I cannot recommend that old airbags do not need to be replaced, people should make their own decisions on the information available. However I definitely recommend not to disable the airbags. This is because the front seat belts have load limiters; in a frontal collision they pay out the webbing once a pre-set load has been reached, to minimise chest injuries from the seat belt. The chest is then restrained by the airbag, which covers a much larger area and hence 'spreads' the load. If the airbag does not inflate, the chest will strike the steering wheel, which will be worse than having the same crash in a car without airbags or seat belt load limiters.

I hope this helps.

Steve H

[madeupname]

That's great Steve, thank you for the info.
I think that as far as disabling the airbags, maybe not now but in the future the dvla will say that if a car was designed with airbags installed, they have to be fitted and capable of working in order to pass the mot.
But how do you test them without deploying them? Going back to the article it seems the best any mechanic can do is to make sure the wiring and connectors are ok.
As for £1000 for the two front airbags, is that how much they cost, or does that include labour costs? And is that price standard for all the modern cars too?

[Mike Noc]

Originally Posted by madeupname

But how do you test them without deploying them? Going back to the article it seems the best any mechanic can do is to make sure the wiring and connectors are ok.

The SRS system is self monitoring, so no need to worry about the wiring and connectors.

I haven't heard of any future legislation being considered regarding this, and the airbags may well work fine even way over 15 years after manufacture.

Some of my mate's cars we go out in don't even have seatbelts, let alone airbags, so in answer to the OPs's title 'Worried about airbags?' Nope.





.

[shenderson]

The MoT test currently includes a check that the airbag warning lamp goes out after a few seconds, which indicates that the self-check is complete and no faults are recorded. This is all that can be realistically be done. I suppose they could insist on evidence that the airbags have been replaced after the manufacturer's stipulated period but, as Mike NOC says, there is no sign that this is being considered.

The £1000 figure I mentioned is a ballpark figure that was mentioned when this issue was being considered. It illustrated that it was uneconomic for a customer to replace the airbags and the airbag replacement recommendation could result in otherwise fully roadworthy cars being scrapped. That's why so much efforrt went in to extending the life of the airbags.

I expect that at todays prices, a pair of airbags fitted by a main dealer is likely to cost rather more than £1000. Add side and curtain airbags and the bill could be huge.

Another point to consider is that I doubt replacement airbags are still being produced for any of the Rover/MG ranges. Any currently in the system might well have sat on a shelf for at least 10 years.

Steve H