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Old 25th January 2014, 23:36   #11
Avulon
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Aren't national currencies backed up with things like "promise to pay the bearer" and government bonds like Gilts etc? Whereas bits are not?
Promises can be (and are) broken - often by government. Currencies can be devalued easily (e.g. 'Quantitive Easing') as we've seen so recently. Currency is just a promise between people to honour a nominal 'value' for something which is otherwise (essentialy) worthless. The value of currency can also be affected by other economic forces beyond the control of the man in the street (the cause of our recent quantitive easing). The illusion of currency having true value is one which is convenient to maintain for those that would 'rule'. Just think how much more interesting and decentralised life would be if without currency and everything having to be bartered for with real goods and services of value.

My point is that Bitcoins are not dissimilar in these respects to other currencies.
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Old 26th January 2014, 15:18   #12
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Promises can be (and are) broken - often by government. Currencies can be devalued easily (e.g. 'Quantitive Easing') as we've seen so recently. Currency is just a promise between people to honour a nominal 'value' for something which is otherwise (essentialy) worthless. The value of currency can also be affected by other economic forces beyond the control of the man in the street (the cause of our recent quantitive easing). The illusion of currency having true value is one which is convenient to maintain for those that would 'rule'. Just think how much more interesting and decentralised life would be if without currency and everything having to be bartered for with real goods and services of value.

My point is that Bitcoins are not dissimilar in these respects to other currencies.

I take your point about the short termism and volatility of governments but the whole basis of Bitcoin is peer-to-peer lending which is just about OK when you fully know the peers to whom you lend or borrow. It is based on illicit money transfer and by its very nature depends on the autonomous and unidentified players on keyboards.

You say a currency is essentially worthless whereas in fact it is backed up by globally published stats which are evidence of standing. This standing is underpinned by internationally approved rating agencies such as Standard & Poors etc.

The value of a State currency is not 'nominal', it is supported by the entire financial stability of the issuing State and is hugely susceptible to the ebb and flow of international confidence in that State. It's true the said currency has no value in itself, it is merely an indication of the State's trading stature as seen by the rest of the world - a far wider audience than the narrow spectrum of bitcoin traders.

I for one wouldn't like living in the 'decentralised' dystopia you envisage, it's too risky by half. Which is my reason for likening bitcoin to pyramid selling.
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Old 27th January 2014, 13:41   #13
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The value of a State currency is not 'nominal', it is supported by the entire financial stability of the issuing State and is hugely susceptible to the ebb and flow of international confidence in that State. It's true the said currency has no value in itself, it is merely an indication of the State's trading stature as seen by the rest of the world - a far wider audience than the narrow spectrum of bitcoin traders.
'hugely susceptible', yes 'normal' currencies are susceptilbe to international confidence in the state - however I think you are mistaken if you think that that confidence is based mostly on true economic worth. It's has much more to do with what (usually, but not always) politicians say than anything else.

So what you are actually saying is that bitcoin is not as widely dispersed and used as other currencies, and so doesn't enjoy a similar stability? And that stability is largely based on percieved rather than real value?

I'm also a bit fuddled by your 'dystopia', I've often done jobs for and 'paid' for jobs done by doing something in return 'quid pro quo' or for a meal or a beer (that I've cooked or brewed myself), I've even, dare I say, swapped something I no longer need/want for something I did with someone else. Hardly dystopian: and something I think that most people are familliar with.
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Old 27th January 2014, 20:19   #14
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'hugely susceptible', yes 'normal' currencies are susceptilbe to international confidence in the state - however I think you are mistaken if you think that that confidence is based mostly on true economic worth. It's has much more to do with what (usually, but not always) politicians say than anything else.

So what you are actually saying is that bitcoin is not as widely dispersed and used as other currencies, and so doesn't enjoy a similar stability? And that stability is largely based on percieved rather than real value?

I'm also a bit fuddled by your 'dystopia', I've often done jobs for and 'paid' for jobs done by doing something in return 'quid pro quo' or for a meal or a beer (that I've cooked or brewed myself), I've even, dare I say, swapped something I no longer need/want for something I did with someone else. Hardly dystopian: and something I think that most people are familliar with.
I didn't say "true economic worth". I was referring to the level of international confidence being a foil to the vagaries of lying politicians and bankers and that confidence being backed up by the independence of rating agencies!

Stability is mostly based on perceived value, you just can't trust official stats, but that is not a result of scale (unless you are talking about USA).

Quid pro quo is just not comparable to Bitcoin. Bitcoin is peer lending with no sound basis for valuation in that it's standing is extremely volatile. Hence the involvement of speculators. It is effectively a money transfer system often used by groups who have a prohibition of money usury and the levying of interest - started in 14th century Middle East and, despite the migration of those ancient peoples, it has never caught on amongst other civilisations. I'm not saying it's good or bad, just different.

Dystopia - opposite of Utopia = unpredictable, breakdown of civilization and order. Think Waterworld. The barter system which I think is what you refer to as something that people are familiar with is far from the reality of bitcoin! Just my offered opinion of course!
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Old 28th January 2014, 00:33   #15
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In lieu of being in pub somewhere getting slowly drunk, without which this debate could continue for far too long for a car forum. I'll yield (a little). I understand you're opinion and accept that to some extent you are right. Except to say that if you really believe any agency can be truly independant in politics ( and yes rating agencies are politic) You are apparently a little naieve (IMO).

My mentioning of barter systems was not to compare with bitcoin but as contrast to the whole concept of currency. I perfectly understand the concept of dystopia, however the dystopias to which you refer are not dystopian because they utilise a barter system, but rather due to human nature and the shortage of the (percieved or otherwise) requirements for living.

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Old 23rd July 2019, 19:52   #16
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A worthy revival!


From Wicki:

2017–2018
Prices started at $998 in 2017 and rose to $13,412.44 on 1 January 2018,[38] after reaching its all time high of $19,783.06 on 17 December 2017.[64]
China banned trading in bitcoin, with first steps taken in September 2017, and a complete ban that started on 1 February 2018. Bitcoin prices then fell from $9,052 to $6,914 on 5 February 2018.[41] The percentage of bitcoin trading in the Chinese renminbi fell from over 90% in September 2017 to less than 1% in June 2018.[65]
Throughout the rest of the first half of 2018, bitcoin's price fluctuated between $11,480 and $5,848. On 1 July 2018, bitcoin's price was $6,343.[66][67] The price on January 1, 2019 was $3,747, down 72% for 2018 and down 81% since the all-time high.[66][68]
Bitcoin prices were negatively affected by several hacks or thefts from cryptocurrency exchanges, including thefts from Coincheck in January 2018, Coinrail and Bithumb in June, and Bancor in July. For the first six months of 2018, $761 million worth of cryptocurrencies was reported stolen from exchanges.[69] Bitcoin's price was affected even though other cryptocurrencies were stolen at Coinrail and Bancor as investors worried about the security of cryptocurrency exchanges

Has all the appearances of a computer game invented by teenage would-be
millionaires. My money came too hard to gamble with. Also, I'm not rich!
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Old 9th December 2019, 20:07   #17
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I ain't got any real money never mind the imaginary stuff
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Old 25th November 2020, 22:46   #18
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Recently I watched some vid on youtube by an investor who uses only Elliott wave principle. He forecasts that this year BTC will renew all time high. I doubt that seriously but it will be interesting to watch if we will withess another to the moon run or if hamsters lose their money once again but if we are going to see another bullrun then it is sensible to do BTC trading https://primexbt.com/blog/what-is-bitcoin-trading/

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