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Old 20th March 2021, 11:07   #1
macafee2
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Default capitalism v communism

capitalism v communism

From what I understand the West, the capitalist West in WW2 supported to a large extent the Russians the Communist East. Providing food, weapons and transportation. Why therefore do the Russians or communism oppose capitalism when it would seem that capitalism drives benefit?

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Old 20th March 2021, 12:36   #2
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capitalism v communism

From what I understand the West, the capitalist West in WW2 supported to a large extent the Russians the Communist East. Providing food, weapons and transportation. Why therefore do the Russians or communism oppose capitalism when it would seem that capitalism drives benefit?

macafee2

Russia is a capitalist country now, with a huge shift over past 30 years, along with a large gap between rich and poor too, which in my view, is derived from the failings of communism and foretold by George Orwell. Those rich, are generally super rich because they were in a position to be aware of what was happening behind closed doors. This allowed themselves to be a position to pounce on areas that would go on to explode financially eg. oil/gas production.

Communism is a great concept (in a simple form). Imagine it, no need for money, just go to the shop and get groceries, everybody works but for no pay. The biggest drawback is human nature, particularly greed or jealousy, followed by a lack of development.

This lack of development was made clear to me one day speaking with a Polish colleague, who was just old enough to recall the communism in Poland. He recalled his mother queued for hours as the local shoe shop awaited a delayed delivery of shoes. There were hundreds of pairs coming in apparently. He needed them as he was growing. So by the time his mother's turn had arrived to enter, all that was left in his size were girls shoes. The issue was manufacturers were instructed to supply shoes, for the people. So they supplied shoes. All were black, various sizes, one design for men, and one for women (but neither were fancy).

Sometimes (I have experienced this with camera lenses) you would get a good well made pair, others would simply fall apart - but they were shoes after all. People were lazy, they did simply what was required of them - make shoes - they left the factory as shoes and that was it.

I have two Jupiter 8 lenses. Both made in the USSR, both look the same. One however is sharp as a tack, the other is just awful (not even capable of being called 'artistic' that hipsters seem to love). The build is different too, with the lens movement being less positive. Apparently this was common.

Another story he told me was a delivery in another town was received, but they were all left shoes, rather than a pair. But the factory, fulfilled their obligation, so there was no issue.

This then leads on to development. You get a TV, it is the latest design/technology, it does its job, but next door, gets theirs a year later with a bigger screen. Now you want one with a bigger screen. Jealousy or greed. So if there is no development, people cannot become jealous of each other or greedy.

Food, cabbage is just as good as say baked beans, but you prefer the beans, but beans are harder to produce, so why not make life easier and produce cabbage (I dont know if one is easier, or better, just as a consideration). Everyone produces cabbage, and therefore all you can eat now. But I really like it, so I lift 6 cabbages, because of my greed and you can see where this is going.

Animal Farm, is a great analogy for the failings of communism.

Capitalism rewards effort, and therefore is more suited to human nature, and besides, it helps to control waste and resources (I have a drill, but it is a year old, a new shiny one would be nice - back to greed ).
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Old 20th March 2021, 13:39   #3
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My daughter during her degree spent a period in the USSR.

"Bananas are season" meant the shop had its small allocation, do not expect any more any time soon.

Old lady on street corner trying to sell a bunch of carrots, all she had.

"Babushka" on each student hostel floor, noting your coming and going times.

I could go on. If you played it by the system in place, it felt reasonably safe. She went back in post USSR times and did not feel safe.

By coincidence she was in Berlin, the day the wall came down. Climbed the wall and took her own piece from it.
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Old 20th March 2021, 13:58   #4
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WW II Simple to answer.
The USSR paid the cost in human life.
Check it out for yourselves.

Russia
Full Name 5 Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
Alliance Soviet Union - Major Member Nation
Entry into WW2 17 Sep 1939
Population in 1939 109,300,000
Military Deaths in WW2 10,700,000
Civilian Deaths in WW2 12,500,000
- Civ Deaths from Holocaust 1,000,000
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Old 20th March 2021, 14:14   #5
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Kev,

You have forgotten those murdered by Stalin either directly or in the Gulags.

All should have watched "Russia versus the World". 21.00 Ch5 Friday 19th
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Old 20th March 2021, 14:22   #6
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From what I understand the West, the capitalist West in WW2 supported to a large extent the Russians the Communist East.

WW II content only please Stalin's antics were not to do with the question asked please keep to the thread.
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Old 20th March 2021, 14:23   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KLM View Post
WW II Simple to answer.
The USSR paid the cost in human life.
Check it out for yourselves.

Russia
Full Name 5 Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic
Alliance Soviet Union - Major Member Nation
Entry into WW2 17 Sep 1939
Population in 1939 109,300,000
Military Deaths in WW2 10,700,000
Civilian Deaths in WW2 12,500,000
- Civ Deaths from Holocaust 1,000,000
Kev.
???????

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Old 20th March 2021, 14:40   #8
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The USSR was founded because unbridled capitalism in their countries had led to terrible inequality and starving peasants being shot in the streets for protesting the lack of bread. WW1 didn't help with the view (shared by many German & British) that it was a largely political war being fought at the cost of commoners lives. They revolted in 1917. Its largely forgotten now that Germany revolted in 1918.
The progression from one system to another was expected to take many years and they never got there. Starting from a point of extreme poverty, the process of change created many production & supply problems which, together with political infighting caused as many deaths as the system it replaced.
Fast forward to WW2 they, even worse than us, were in no position to fight and struck a deal with Hitler. Once he'd gone as far as he could in Europe he set his sights on their huge natural resources. Had he succeeded he would have been able to concentrate of Middle East, Africa and, with Japan attacking our Far East empire, would doubtless had another pop at us. So, at a time when we were losing on all fronts, we had to bolster the Russians. For a large chunk of the middle of the war probably our most important role was our bombing campaign tying up German resources to give them a chance. The Russians sustained huge losses but also inflicted huge losses (an entire German Army surrendered after Stalingrad) and, in the end we, the Russians, the Americans and pretty much all our allies met in Berlin.
We were then very concerned (especially having portrayed them in a positive light through the war years) that Communism would further expand. The Cold War started and that was that.
Almost all countries carried on the progress towards mixed economies that had started after WW1 (at least partly to create fairer societies and thereby reduce the risk of revolution) but over the past 40 years "free-market" capitalism has been in the ascendancy again.
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Old 20th March 2021, 17:25   #9
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I used to work with a guy who fitted out the first McDonalds in Moscow, everything had to be flown in and all the staff were sent to Germany for training.

On the day it opened there was a que as far as the eye could see all directions and it was going to cost them about a days wages for the average person for a ''meal''. They had completely run out of everything in 24 hours and they were sending in a flight every few days to keep it restocked for several weeks.
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Old 20th March 2021, 17:42   #10
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At times some years ago (1980s) I used to work part time as driver for a guy who had a stage and theater design company (think the ELO flying saucer) and he was involved in several theater projects in the USSR. When pricing a project he had to factor in the cost of a few luxury holidays for the Soviets and always said that when building anything in the Soviet Union the morter mix was 3 x sand, 1 x Cement and 1 x microphones.

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