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Old 14th April 2018, 22:42   #21
maxi_crawf
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Well I have a 53 plate 190 that when I bought it had no history of the belts being done although it only had 76K on the clock and the seller insisted was 'mint mate' I had them done by Trikey (including all the ancilliaries) as far as I'm concerned the longer you go past the recommended service intervals the bigger the risk you are taking, is amases me how many owners of v6 engined cars say 'oh I'll just drive it till the belts let go, I'm not paying for the belts to be done'
Down that route lies the accelerated extinction of the KV6 engine.
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:44   #22
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No brainer the mileage and age is there for a reason,may only be a guide but after testing these figures were presented..Rubber in this climate cold hot best way to destroy rubber,also its not just the belts water pump and tension er i believe are also known to fail.

So my opinion get it done then once done if anything was to happen Hello Garage.......
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:47   #23
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Originally Posted by maxi_crawf View Post
... as far as I'm concerned the longer you go past the recommended service intervals the bigger the risk you are taking ...
In terms of mileage for cambelt renewal Roy yes, I agree. There is no catalogue of evidence which demonstrates without doubt and excluding "beliefs" that they need changing after six years, quite the contrary in fact.
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... is amases me how many owners of v6 engined cars say 'oh I'll just drive it till the belts let go, I'm not paying for the belts to be done'
I've never come across anyone who says that Roy. Again, the opposite seems to be the case. Like yourself, most people willingly pay for the job on a time basis.

Why not have a look at my own thread on the subject. There you can see photographs of my rear belts. It is obvious that they are in excellent condition with no sign of excessive wear or imminent destruction and yet they are 19 years old, not 6. That proves that there is no risk involved in adhering to the replacement schedule on a mileage basis only.

Simon
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Old 15th April 2018, 07:59   #24
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No brainer the mileage and age is there for a reason ..
Yes Gary, I agree. The mileage is quoted because a component such as a drive belt will wear when it is doing mechanical work, i.e. when the engine is running.

I have explained many times how MG Rover came up with the replacement on a six year basis but I will give it again. They judged that the belts have a service life of 90,000 miles and that the average driver covers 15,000 miles per year (this assumption is the basis for all manufacturers' service schedules for oil, filters, everything). 90,000 miles divided by 15,000 miles p.a. is 6 years. It was as simple as that. However, if a driver covers 10,000 miles p.a. the answer changes to 9 years. Then people cry out that this driver is taking a dangerous risk. Of course he isn't. The service life hasn't changed, only the mathematics has.
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Rubber in this climate cold hot best way to destroy rubber ..
Nonsense Gary. If that were true, there would be an insistence that every vehicle's tyres were renewed on a time basis, on safety grounds. There isn't, and many tyres last longer than six years.
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... also its not just the belts water pump and tension er i believe are also known to fail.
Let's add suspension bushes, ABS sensors, exhausts, the list is endless for every car on the road, but do you replace all those on a time basis?
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... get it done then once done if anything was to happen Hello Garage.......
That's just the same old insurance salesman tactic Gary. My belts are 19 years old and they're fine. Nothing is going to happen!

Simon
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Old 15th April 2018, 08:18   #25
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Very valid points Simon...
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Old 15th April 2018, 09:43   #26
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Very valid points Simon...
Wow, thank you Gary. It's good to see somebody thinking about this for a change!

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Old 15th April 2018, 12:59   #27
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Yes Gary, I agree. The mileage is quoted because a component such as a drive belt will wear when it is doing mechanical work, i.e. when the engine is running.

I have explained many times how MG Rover came up with the replacement on a six year basis but I will give it again. They judged that the belts have a service life of 90,000 miles and that the average driver covers 15,000 miles per year (this assumption is the basis for all manufacturers' service schedules for oil, filters, everything). 90,000 miles divided by 15,000 miles p.a. is 6 years. It was as simple as that. However, if a driver covers 10,000 miles p.a. the answer changes to 9 years. Then people cry out that this driver is taking a dangerous risk. Of course he isn't. The service life hasn't changed, only the mathematics has.

Nonsense Gary. If that were true, there would be an insistence that every vehicle's tyres were renewed on a time basis, on safety grounds. There isn't, and many tyres last longer than six years.

Let's add suspension bushes, ABS sensors, exhausts, the list is endless for every car on the road, but do you replace all those on a time basis?

That's just the same old insurance salesman tactic Gary. My belts are 19 years old and they're fine. Nothing is going to happen!

Simon
Rubber does degrade over time, regardless of the use it has had. I've had rear tyre sidewalls crack long before the tread wears out. Every part of a car that is made of rubber degrades over time. The difference between tyre or bush degradation and belt degradation is that firstly, there is normally some warning that the rubber is letting go, a new clonk here, a bit of a steering vibration there which alerts you to a potential problem, and secondly, you can visually check tyres and bushes for wear. A belt just let's go without warning, and can't be visually inspected or tested for integrity.
Someone mentioned "Russian roulette", a very apt term for it. If you have gone 19 years without a belt change, I'd like to paraphrase Dirty Harry " do you feel lucky?"
Just for clarification, I'm not one of those "know nothing" traders who are ganging up on you, and I may not have your vast experience, but other than MOTs, have only had to rely on garages a handful of times in 35 years of driving and working on my own and my family's cars.
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Old 15th April 2018, 14:00   #28
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I read with interest the bit about not degrading with time. I see tyres are mentioned. You guys obviously don't ride motorbikes. I would never ride a motorbike with old rubber no matter how much tread there is left. Old tyres have a hard wooden feel, and loose grip very easily.

And in the wet! You don't even want to go there
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Old 15th April 2018, 14:11   #29
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Very true, Mike.
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Old 15th April 2018, 14:50   #30
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Rubber does degrade over time, regardless of the use it has had.
As a general principle Dave I concede that. Gary used the word ‘destroy’ which of course has a different meaning. The important point I am making is that, although timing belts will degrade to some extent over time, it is so insignificant that it does not justify discarding the belts after six years. If it did, then my belts would have broken by now but they have not.
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I've had rear tyre sidewalls crack long before the tread wears out.
I experienced that with the Michelins on our urban runabout. That was when I stopped straddling those cursed speed tablets. It hasn’t happened with any of my other tyres so I think it’s unwise to assume that this is natural degradation. It could be poor manufacturing quality or the effect of an external influence.
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A belt just let's go without warning, and can't be visually inspected or tested for integrity.
I would argue Dave that it doesn’t “just let go”. The warning signs will be present, it’s just that we cannot see them.
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If you have gone 19 years without a belt change, I'd like to paraphrase Dirty Harry " do you feel lucky?"
No, it’s not a question of luck. It’s a question of applying engineering principles and not fear induced panic. Timing belts will wear out very slowly when the engine is running. When it isn’t running there can be no wear. Any degradation due to just existing (in a somewhat protected environment) is so minor as to be totally insignificant. If I was wrong about this then my belts would surely have “let go” by now, don’t you think? Also, how many actual belt failures do we hear about? I can recall one; a 1.8 engine where the owner had deliberately exceeded the 90,000 mile service life so that is irrelevant to this debate. The evidence just isn’t there.
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... other than MOTs, have only had to rely on garages a handful of times in 35 years of driving and working on my own and my family's cars.
Me too Dave, but I abandoned garages after less than a handful of consistently bad experiences. I was sure that I could do better at considerably less cost.

Thanks for your contribution.

Simon
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