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Old 15th February 2024, 16:52   #51
SteveThackery
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No wonder this country is going downhill. Doom, gloom and apathy is all around me. I am going to see my sons father-in-law off on his longest drive; it will last forever. I am sure people will be happier there than some people on here. I must say I am surprised at the attitude some people exude in their posts on here. I was always taught that if you never ask, you never get. Chins up and soldier on.
I'm perfectly clear why I'm not supporting the petition, and it's nothing to do with doom and gloom. It's simply because I don't agree with it.

Nobody in this entire thread has given a good reason why old cars should get a tax break. I've got three cars, all over 20 years old, so I would save quite a bit of money. But this isn't about satisfying my greed - it's about the greater good. Paying tax is a good thing; it's what makes the ambulances come when you dial 999, it's what builds schools for our kids.

I want to pay a fair amount of tax, based upon my ability to pay. Each of my cars and motorcycles attracts a certain tax burden, and if we are honest with ourselves, if we can afford a Rover 75 then we can afford the tax. We might not like it, but we can pay it. If we truly can't afford to eat because of the tax on our Rover 75s, then we really should sell the car.

Our elected Parliament has decided what a fair tax rate is for our cars. If we want to petition them to reduce the rate, then we need a compelling reason to justify that. Otherwise, why should they comply? And there is one question you need an answer for: if you want to pay less tax, which public service are you willing to see degraded? Fewer books in schools? A bit less pay for the nurses? Fewer potholes fixed?

Because make no mistake, the less tax we pay, the less the government can spend on public services.

If someone could offer a compelling reason why old cars like ours should pay less tax, then I would certainly consider it most carefully. So far it just sounds like people wanting to keep more money in their pocket, and that's not a good enough reason because everybody instinctively wants that. There must be more - there must be a good, compelling reason.
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Old 15th February 2024, 18:35   #52
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I know where you are coming from, but as I say, in this world, if you don’t ask, you don’t get. I don’t suppose you have signed the petition to the government to ask them not to put the tax up on petrol and diesel then? I suppose if that goes down you will still pay the same amount to the government as it is now? You don’t need a ‘reason’ to ask for something. Do you wait for your company to offer you a rise? You will be waiting a longtime if you don’t ask. Perhaps you would like to ask me why I know this? Because at the octogenarian age, I have probably done it all, many times, so know from experience, ‘ don’t ask, don’t get. I am saying all this in a friendly way, not argumentative.
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Old 16th February 2024, 08:05   #53
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You still haven't answered why we should get a tax cut. So, why should we?

Without that answer, Parliament would have no reason to grant your request.
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Old 16th February 2024, 08:31   #54
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You still haven't answered why we should get a tax cut. So, why should we?

Without that answer, Parliament would have no reason to grant your request.
Quite simply, to bring the VED rates for older vehicles in line with current rates for post 2017 vehicles. Post 2017 vehicles pay a maximum annual rate of £180, vehicles older than 40 (?) years pay nothing. Vehicles around 20 years or so seem to be stuck in a "no mans land" of high charges. I agree that age alone should not justify a lower rate, but neither should it justify a higher rate.

One rating system for all, regardless of vehicle age, would be fairest in my view.

Cliff
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Old 16th February 2024, 22:30   #55
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Thanks for explaining that Cliff. Could not have put it better myself.
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Old 17th February 2024, 13:40   #56
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I agree that age alone should not justify a lower rate, but neither should it justify a higher rate.
I expect the higher rate is because older cars pollute more, so the higher tax is to encourage us towards newer, less polluting cars. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

The anomaly is with cars over 40 years old; I don't know why they pay no tax - it doesn't seem to make sense. I understand why they don't need an MOT (because they fail to meet modern MOT standards in so many ways), but zero tax? I don't get it.

So I don't think your argument for "one tax rate for all" makes sense, if you acknowledge that at least part of the role of road tax is to steer behaviours in a particular way, towards less polluting cars.
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Old 17th February 2024, 14:25   #57
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The anomaly is with cars over 40 years old; I don't know why they pay no tax - it doesn't seem to make sense.
I think it's because 40+ year old cars are (or have been) reckoned to be part of the national heritage.

One of the principals of taxation is that you tax things you want to discourage (like smoking) and give tax breaks to things you want to encourage (like charitable donations). The government appear to be happy to incentivise the preservation of genuinely classic cars, and the amount of pollution they cause on their way to Goodwood or wherever a few times per year is utterly negligible.

Rover 75s, sheddy old Vauxhall Corsas, Mrs Miggins' old fiesta - anything people use daily - do not yet fall into that category and should pay tax. There will always be exceptions in both directions (i.e. the odd enthusiast will daily drive his Triumph Herald, and some people will buy a brand new Porsche 911 and only drive it 10 times per year), but as long as we are going to use age as the deciding factor, 40 years is a pretty reasonable cutoff point IMO.

20 years though - not a chance.

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Old 17th February 2024, 17:10   #58
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I expect the higher rate is because older cars pollute more, so the higher tax is to encourage us towards newer, less polluting cars. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.........

I disagree. My '75 has a Co2 figure of 228 g/km. The post 2017 annual VED rate for vehicles 226 - 255 g/km is £180. For all vehicles with a CO2 rate of over 255 g/km it is also £180. I could drive a Bugatti Veyron with a CO2 figure of 505.606 g/km and pay half the annual VED rate of my 20 yr old Rover. I don't see that as perfectly reasonable.

I admit, the post 2017 vehicle will have a much higher 1st year VED figure (£2220 for a vehicle equivalent to my Rover, £2605 for my imaginary Bugatti), but in mitigation, the Treasury has had the benefit of 20 years of VED from my Rover which would, I'm sure, exceed the first year VED rate of any post 2017 vehicle.

The only reason my 75 is excluded from the 226 - 255 g/km category is it's age - I really can't see it being more polluting than my new Veyron will be when I get around to buying it (providing I can find one in Lagoon, with walnut dash etc )

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Old 18th February 2024, 22:05   #59
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The anomaly is with cars over 40 years old; I don't know why they pay no tax - it doesn't seem to make sense.
The Federation of British Historic Vehicle Clubs has some info that might explain why the government would want to incentivise classic vehicle ownership with a VED exemption for vehicles over 40 years old.



https://www.fbhvc.co.uk/historic-vehicles-the-facts

Interestingly, "the global qualification for a Historic Vehicle is 30 years as defined by the Fédération International des Véhicules Anciens (FIVA)". Previous petitions have asked for the exemption age limit to be dropped to 30 years, but they were unsuccessful.

As for reducing the VED burden on 20-ish year old cars, I think Teflon's point makes a lot of sense, but I doubt we'll see any change as being seen to incentivise the ownership of older (but not classic by the government's definition) cars doesn't really fit with the green agenda. The government could propose a "pay per mile" system by scrapping VED and increasing fuel duty, or utilising the growing road camera network...
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Old 19th February 2024, 09:01   #60
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I disagree. My '75 has a Co2 figure of 228 g/km. The post 2017 annual VED rate for vehicles 226 - 255 g/km is £180. For all vehicles with a CO2 rate of over 255 g/km it is also £180. I could drive a Bugatti Veyron with a CO2 figure of 505.606 g/km and pay half the annual VED rate of my 20 yr old Rover. I don't see that as perfectly reasonable.

(.......)

The only reason my 75 is excluded from the 226 - 255 g/km category is it's age - I really can't see it being more polluting than my new Veyron will be when I get around to buying it (providing I can find one in Lagoon, with walnut dash etc )

Cliff
I think that's an excellent point. Instead of assuming 20-year-old cars are more polluting, they should use the actual pollution data on each model to determine which VED band they belong in. Logically the age of the car should be irrelevant. You've convinced me!
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