New car petrol and diesel stopped from 2040 - Page 13

topman · 27th July 2017, 12:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mintee

I don't think Lucid have the funding and they certainly don't have the charging infrastructure that Tesla have invested in.

Their Supercharger network really is a game changer and whoever wants to try to compete with Tesla will have to either build their own or, presumably, pay Tesla to allow their customers to access them.

No but nevertheless I found the car interesting and what can be achieved by smaller companies. I think paying for access to their network is likely.

guru · 27th July 2017, 15:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rooney

I think the more interesting thing is when people make up stats using words like most with no quantifiable benchmark to gauge it on.

You have no idea what ''most'' people who have driven an electric car think of them, nor do you have any idea whether ''most people'' who've driven one are ''instantly converted''

What you can honestly say (if it's true) is ''most people'' you know, including you, have felt that way, which is presumably why you have the car you have. Even if you're the most popular man in your city, your ''most'' people are a massive minority of the car driving population in general.

My sister has the same car as you. I've driven it. I think they're lovely cars but there's not a chance in the devil's own house that I'd trade any of my ''dirty diesels'' for one.

No problem, if you can provide a quantifiable benchmark to prove I'm wrong I'll happily concede that point. Fact is through real life and the various car forums I'm on I do know of a large number of people who have tried electric and all of them have been impressed or amazed by it, not a single person that I know has maintained their dislike of them after driving one. Even my mate who's one of the biggest luddites known to man and VERY anti-EV's changed his mind completely after driving the e-Golf and will probably also go electric next.
As for my car I actually really dislike hybrids, I see them as a flawed technology that only serves to bridge the gap between ICE's and EV's and does both pretty badly to be honest. I'm also not very fond of diesel's (which the ICE in my car is). Really the only reason for going for my car is that it's VERY quick (think ZT V8 performance) whilst still being very tax efficient. I'm probably being a little harsh as it's still an amazing car to drive but I would far rather it ran on petrol and had 8 cylinders.

As for the environmental aspect I'll be honest and say that I'm not an environmentalist at all, don't get me wrong I'm very fond of planet Earth as I keep all my stuff here however I'm not convinced that we're destroying it. That said once EV's rule the roads I will not miss the smell and noise in the city at all. Norwich on a busy day can be very unpleasant because of the traffic fumes and the less said about London in the rush hour the better. I for one will not miss having to breathe that in and would be very happy if my children didn't have to either.

Mintee · 27th July 2017, 17:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by EastPete

I was not thinking of cost in terms of pounds/dollars, but energy usage (kW or whatever) when you take into account all the energy expended in making a new car- manufacturing all the parts, transporting them to the factory, assembly and transporting the finished product to the customer.

Pete

Well, the percentage of the price paid for the car will bear some relationship to the amount of energy used, throughout the manufacturing process, and I don't see that is a particularly large proportion....

Sent from my A0001 using Tapatalk

steve-45 · 27th July 2017, 18:41

Charging points now seem to be being installed everywhere - on holiday at moment in Odessa Ukraine and even saw 2 charging points in the city centre - no electric cars parked in them just 2 twenty year old Lada's

Been here about a week so far and have not seen one electric vehicle yet ?

Dallas · 27th July 2017, 19:05

There will have to be a new general taxation introduce for owning and running an EV, with them all having ZERO emission's will give the Treasury a zero fund.

As we know, road tax was first introduced for the upkeep of the roads, then later abolished in favour of 'Car Tax' VED or 'Pollution Tax' or what ever you want to call it. What will happen now they cant base it on size of engine and emissions?

It will go back to the upkeep of the roads, charging a one set rate amount or a structure based fee on vehicle miles travelled, or sized battery.

Basically, it all comes down to evolution, us humans are still evolving along with everything else. The electric car is a move forward to a new lifestyle change for the whole world, nobody knows yet what will come of it all. What I do know myself is... plenty more wrong decisions will get made..

Modern technology will continue to shape people's lives, work and lifestyle changes will adapt accordingly. The government and those in-charge will always be at the forefront of dictating what we should, and should not be doing, this will show evidence towards the new EV taxation charges.

The work lifestyle format will continue to be streamlined in a government controlled way, where driving for pleasure could well become very expensive. The electric vehicle means nothing when it comes to the money pot not getting its share, the next 5-10 years will bring a whole new taxation class to upset the world of EV ownership.

That's just my reckoning of course.

AndyN01 · 27th July 2017, 19:07

Hi.

Thanks for the comments and thoughts.

The terminology is fascinating.

I was talking about the environmental impact of producing and running a new car.

This is not the financial "costs" it's the effect on the environment.

Being very generalist "we" are socially programmed to look at values in terms of financial cost. A car is "worth" however many £££ (ours seem to be only a few).

IMHO financial cost is purely a "made up" thing.

What cost or impact is the death of a loved one? I'm sure someone will have the "cost" - how much it costs for the burial/legal stuff etc. But the impact is something different. What has gone cannot be replaced.

What is the impact (not financial cost) of producing enough lithium to make all the battery packs that will be needed? I have no idea but I could hazard a guess it will be substantial.

Maybe it will lead to the extinction of some species or the destruction of some communities? Cost? Probably negligible. Impact? Possibly massive.

Nature has been keeping everything nicely in balance for hundreds of thousands of years.

The amount of prey is balanced by the number of predators.

The amount of CO2 produced is balanced by the amounts needed for photosynthesis.

Evolution maintains the balance.

The thing that upsets the balance is us.

I believe that upset will have profound effects and far too quickly for evolution to "catch up."

I'm not a green activist or some new age rose tinted glasses wearer because I don't trust politicians to tell the truth or do the "right" thing. Politicians are, IMHO, generally too focused on short term fiddling to make themselves look good and get re elected to stay on the gravy train or set the foundations to look after No1 in the future.

Fully agree on the above about no politician will be brought to book about what they did or didn't do or say a couple of decades after the event. Even if they were it's too late to actually do anything to them about their duff decision.

Check out pretty much any National Audit Office report about any Government "project" - over decades they've almost all failed, often spectacularly but no one's head seems to roll and those in power seem to happily repeat the "formula" over and over again. HS2 anyone? (Think Einstein - Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results).

I hope there is some solid science to enlighten the future direction and that those in power listen to it and act with our the long term future in mind.

Andy.

murphyv310 · 28th July 2017, 08:03

Andy.... a well thought out post.
Spot on and a good read.

BigRuss · 28th July 2017, 11:13

Prepare to get taxed to the point of giving up driving in order to try and make this work. 23 years to get all the infrastructure in place to make it happen doubtful that it will happen in time.

Look at the amount of new power stations that would need to be built and how long it's taken to get just one new Nuclear power staion approved, never mind built

Where is all the money to run the country going to come from? The loss in revenues from taxation on fuel alone will be staggering, What about the oil companies what are they going to do? The more you look into it there's an awful lot of unanswered questions.

By 2040 the world will have a lot more than electric vehicles to worry about, world population figures will have reached over 9 Billion, the increasing demand for resources and food will become a real problem, coupled with the growing unemployment figures as more and more jobs are mechanised is likely to cause real problems and even civil unrest.

Russ

murphyv310 · 28th July 2017, 11:22

Don't for a minute think oil companies and refineries will slow down or stop and neither will oil exploration. Oil is needed in the manufacturing of plastics and many other processes. I cannot see the US abandoning IC engines. Africa too don't have the resources and South America too although they do use Ethanol that is cleaner anyway than petrol although not nice in older cars.
So we still need to factor in electricity demand in refining as it won't stop all of a sudden if ever before the planet's oil runs out.

genpk · 28th July 2017, 11:25

Is here in Australia we are having a good laugh.
This may all be well work for countries like the Uk and the USA where there are towns every 100km but here in Australia, you can travel well over a 1,000km without seeing anything but Roos and emus.
No one is going to sit around for a few hours until there car is re charged and the other option I recall seeing was battery exchange points where you swap batteries but you can imagine getting these out to remote areas ,every manufacturer will have their own unique design to fit their car only.
Add to this the massive unemployment that will be created ( no more need for mechanics, parts suppliers etc as electric motor are way less wear.
I see the future is you will only be able to work for Tesla, google or Amazon otherwise you will be on the dole and live day to day.
I heard the other day in Australia there a 100,000 people employed making apps for phones. Now that's what I veal productive work for our society!!!
Really , we are designing our own demise !! Just a natter of time and it's all going to fall to bits - not in my life I hope !!

27th July 2017, 19:07	#126
AndyN01 This is my second home Toyota RAV4 Join Date: Jun 2017 Location: Tamworth Posts: 3,076 Thanks: 2,478 Thanked 1,579 Times in 968 Posts	Hi. Thanks for the comments and thoughts. The terminology is fascinating. I was talking about the environmental impact of producing and running a new car. This is not the financial "costs" it's the effect on the environment. Being very generalist "we" are socially programmed to look at values in terms of financial cost. A car is "worth" however many £££ (ours seem to be only a few). IMHO financial cost is purely a "made up" thing. What cost or impact is the death of a loved one? I'm sure someone will have the "cost" - how much it costs for the burial/legal stuff etc. But the impact is something different. What has gone cannot be replaced. What is the impact (not financial cost) of producing enough lithium to make all the battery packs that will be needed? I have no idea but I could hazard a guess it will be substantial. Maybe it will lead to the extinction of some species or the destruction of some communities? Cost? Probably negligible. Impact? Possibly massive. Nature has been keeping everything nicely in balance for hundreds of thousands of years. The amount of prey is balanced by the number of predators. The amount of CO2 produced is balanced by the amounts needed for photosynthesis. Evolution maintains the balance. The thing that upsets the balance is us. I believe that upset will have profound effects and far too quickly for evolution to "catch up." I'm not a green activist or some new age rose tinted glasses wearer because I don't trust politicians to tell the truth or do the "right" thing. Politicians are, IMHO, generally too focused on short term fiddling to make themselves look good and get re elected to stay on the gravy train or set the foundations to look after No1 in the future. Fully agree on the above about no politician will be brought to book about what they did or didn't do or say a couple of decades after the event. Even if they were it's too late to actually do anything to them about their duff decision. Check out pretty much any National Audit Office report about any Government "project" - over decades they've almost all failed, often spectacularly but no one's head seems to roll and those in power seem to happily repeat the "formula" over and over again. HS2 anyone? (Think Einstein - Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results). I hope there is some solid science to enlighten the future direction and that those in power listen to it and act with our the long term future in mind. Andy. __________________ Andy. http://www.midlandsnanomeets.co.uk/ Last edited by AndyN01; 29th July 2017 at 07:45.. Reason: Grammar

28th July 2017, 08:03	#127
murphyv310 This is my second home Hyundai i10 998cc Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Kilmarnock Posts: 6,602 Thanks: 2,088 Thanked 2,298 Times in 1,349 Posts	Andy.... a well thought out post. Spot on and a good read. __________________ Cheers from Trevor MM0KJJ

28th July 2017, 11:13	#128
BigRuss Premium Trader 75 CDT Tourer,2.5 Launch Saloon, Omipro MG/Rover (T4) Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Liversedge, West Yorkshire Posts: 5,405 Thanks: 1,105 Thanked 1,340 Times in 661 Posts	Prepare to get taxed to the point of giving up driving in order to try and make this work. 23 years to get all the infrastructure in place to make it happen doubtful that it will happen in time. Look at the amount of new power stations that would need to be built and how long it's taken to get just one new Nuclear power staion approved, never mind built Where is all the money to run the country going to come from? The loss in revenues from taxation on fuel alone will be staggering, What about the oil companies what are they going to do? The more you look into it there's an awful lot of unanswered questions. By 2040 the world will have a lot more than electric vehicles to worry about, world population figures will have reached over 9 Billion, the increasing demand for resources and food will become a real problem, coupled with the growing unemployment figures as more and more jobs are mechanised is likely to cause real problems and even civil unrest. Russ __________________ Replacement Key Service http://https://the75andztclub.co.uk/...d.php?t=244732 Full T4 Testbook diagnostics available. Diesel ECU repair and replacement. Options enabled or disabled as required. Diesel X-Power 135 and 160bhp, Rover 1.8T 150 to 160 MG 160 V6 to 177 upgrades available P.M. for details.

28th July 2017, 11:22	#129
murphyv310 This is my second home Hyundai i10 998cc Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Kilmarnock Posts: 6,602 Thanks: 2,088 Thanked 2,298 Times in 1,349 Posts	Don't for a minute think oil companies and refineries will slow down or stop and neither will oil exploration. Oil is needed in the manufacturing of plastics and many other processes. I cannot see the US abandoning IC engines. Africa too don't have the resources and South America too although they do use Ethanol that is cleaner anyway than petrol although not nice in older cars. So we still need to factor in electricity demand in refining as it won't stop all of a sudden if ever before the planet's oil runs out. __________________ Cheers from Trevor MM0KJJ

27th July 2017, 18:41	#124
steve-45 This is my second home Rover 75 Saloon CDTi Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: Belvedere Posts: 4,076 Thanks: 108 Thanked 1,089 Times in 774 Posts	Charging points now seem to be being installed everywhere - on holiday at moment in Odessa Ukraine and even saw 2 charging points in the city centre - no electric cars parked in them just 2 twenty year old Lada's Been here about a week so far and have not seen one electric vehicle yet ?

27th July 2017, 19:05	#125
Dallas This is my second home 1979 Capri 1.6L, 1982 Capri 1.6L, 2016 Dacia Stepway Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Dorset Posts: 8,595 Thanks: 3,496 Thanked 3,397 Times in 2,218 Posts	There will have to be a new general taxation introduce for owning and running an EV, with them all having ZERO emission's will give the Treasury a zero fund. As we know, road tax was first introduced for the upkeep of the roads, then later abolished in favour of 'Car Tax' VED or 'Pollution Tax' or what ever you want to call it. What will happen now they cant base it on size of engine and emissions? It will go back to the upkeep of the roads, charging a one set rate amount or a structure based fee on vehicle miles travelled, or sized battery. Basically, it all comes down to evolution, us humans are still evolving along with everything else. The electric car is a move forward to a new lifestyle change for the whole world, nobody knows yet what will come of it all. What I do know myself is... plenty more wrong decisions will get made.. Modern technology will continue to shape people's lives, work and lifestyle changes will adapt accordingly. The government and those in-charge will always be at the forefront of dictating what we should, and should not be doing, this will show evidence towards the new EV taxation charges. The work lifestyle format will continue to be streamlined in a government controlled way, where driving for pleasure could well become very expensive. The electric vehicle means nothing when it comes to the money pot not getting its share, the next 5-10 years will bring a whole new taxation class to upset the world of EV ownership. That's just my reckoning of course.

28th July 2017, 11:25	#130
genpk Posted a thing or two Rover 75 Saloon MGZT Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Perth, AUSTRALIA Posts: 1,664 Thanks: 3 Thanked 461 Times in 299 Posts	Is here in Australia we are having a good laugh. This may all be well work for countries like the Uk and the USA where there are towns every 100km but here in Australia, you can travel well over a 1,000km without seeing anything but Roos and emus. No one is going to sit around for a few hours until there car is re charged and the other option I recall seeing was battery exchange points where you swap batteries but you can imagine getting these out to remote areas ,every manufacturer will have their own unique design to fit their car only. Add to this the massive unemployment that will be created ( no more need for mechanics, parts suppliers etc as electric motor are way less wear. I see the future is you will only be able to work for Tesla, google or Amazon otherwise you will be on the dole and live day to day. I heard the other day in Australia there a 100,000 people employed making apps for phones. Now that's what I veal productive work for our society!!! Really , we are designing our own demise !! Just a natter of time and it's all going to fall to bits - not in my life I hope !!