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Old 6th April 2022, 08:33   #31
polinsteve
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Originally Posted by bl52krz View Post
The reason engine braking is frowned upon is because the latest drivers? Can not change down a gear, and certainly can not double de clutch. Reason I was told was because it takes your concentration from the road. Well all I can say is if changing gear takes your concentration away, you should not be driving. Such a lot of rubbish talked these days about driving, and most of it is because of useless drivers in the ‘teaching ‘ trade. I was asked to go out with a friend of my wife’s who was going for her fourth , yes fourth driving test, and believe it or not she could not do three point turns, or reverse properly. When I showed her how to do a three point turn, and she managed to do one after about six times, she told me that I had showed her the prper way. The ‘teacher’ had shown her a totally different way. Showed her how to use the three mirrors when reversing, and she said she had only been told to use the ‘two outside mirrors’. No wonder there are people who can not reverse or do correct three point turns. About time some of these teachers learnt drivers to use the indicators also.
I'm one of these useless drivers in the teaching trade and quite frankly I find your comment insulting and unnecessary.
I was certified by the then Bus and Coach council as a PSV instructor. My on road assessment was marked as excellent, my on road teaching assessment was also marked as excellent. In the theoretical tests I was the 1st candidate to score 100%. I was also elected as a commercial member of the IAM and trained other drivers to IAM standards and achieved a 100% pass rate for the IAM test. Furthermore I have my C&G in PSV driving instruction.
Over the years I have also attended many courses to maintain, improve and update my skills.
I think it fair to say that after a successful driver training career lasting some 30 years that although I've never obtained the accolade of being a perfect driver or trainer, I have in that time helped many people learn how to drive to very high standards. What I and any other trainer cannot do is dictate how people will drive in the future.
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Old 6th April 2022, 08:43   #32
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Originally Posted by Mike Noc;

Drove coaches back in the day and you had more choices of braking - exhaust brake and an hydraulic retarder were options.
The trouble with all these braking systems is there habit of not working to high standards. How often, especially with auto-boxes, did you get a vehicle which was either impossible or nightmare to brake smoothly, either the retarder snatching in or the downshifts harsh for instance, or the nigh on impossibility of avoiding recoil braking. I found that a manual box, synchro or crash, and a good basic airbrake system, were far more comfortable as a driver or passenger.
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Old 6th April 2022, 08:47   #33
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Originally Posted by another_clean_sheet View Post
I was taught that 50 years ago!! They were only four speed boxes so it was 4 to 2
It was more fun with a 4 speed, (crash 1st&2nd) box with a 2 speed Eaton back axle. On quiet late night routes I would play for hours up and down the gearbox. Also played for hours with 5 speed crashbox buses.
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Old 6th April 2022, 08:51   #34
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Originally Posted by Twisterboy View Post
I remember when I started driving (2000) it was Block Change from say 4 to 2, but when I became a member of the IAM they encouraged driving in a flexible gear like 3rd at 30mph and encouraged engine braking.
When I trained for IAM and when I trained others, I agree that the most flexible gear for the speed was recommended. However, the engine was used only to assist in holding the speed, not attaining it.
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Old 6th April 2022, 08:54   #35
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Originally Posted by macafee2 View Post
sorry not park, pull up and reverse. My mistake
https://despatch.blog.gov.uk/2017/08...ers-will-give/

May need to scroll down. I challenged this maneuver on an Ashley Neal video and was told it is part of driving test.

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I don't have a lot of respect for him. I've questioned him a few times about various aspects.
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Old 6th April 2022, 10:24   #36
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Originally Posted by polinsteve View Post
The trouble with all these braking systems is there habit of not working to high standards. How often, especially with auto-boxes, did you get a vehicle which was either impossible or nightmare to brake smoothly, either the retarder snatching in or the downshifts harsh for instance, or the nigh on impossibility of avoiding recoil braking. I found that a manual box, synchro or crash, and a good basic airbrake system, were far more comfortable as a driver or passenger.
Fair comment Steve but I can assure you all the braking systems worked to very high standards when I test drove the coaches because I was the service engineer sorting them, and like you I'm proud of my working record!

I was lucky enough to work on what were generally regarded as the Rolls Royce of coaches though - Kassbohrer (by people who hadn't heard of Drogmoller of course).

Daimler Benz engines and Voith retarders both gave very little trouble and the retarders were particularly smooth.
As in everything, you get what you pay for.

Had an automatic in once because it had an intermittent stall fault. Took it for a test drive and all of a sudden the engine died on the over run and the power steering was lost - they sure load up with no power assistance!





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Old 6th April 2022, 11:51   #37
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Originally Posted by Mike Noc View Post
Fair comment Steve but I can assure you all the braking systems worked to very high standards when I test drove the coaches because I was the service engineer sorting them, and like you I'm proud of my working record!

I was lucky enough to work on what were generally regarded as the Rolls Royce of coaches though - Kassbohrer (by people who hadn't heard of Drogmoller of course).

Daimler Benz engines and Voith retarders both gave very little trouble and the retarders were particularly smooth.
As in everything, you get what you pay for.

Had an automatic in once because it had an intermittent stall fault. Took it for a test drive and all of a sudden the engine died on the over run and the power steering was lost - they sure load up with no power assistance!

.
I only know of Kassbohrer by reputation, never having worked for a company running them. The bulk of my career was either driving buses or training with the emphasis on buses. The quality of the engineers made a massive difference. I started bussing at a rural depot, our allocation being just 11 vehicles, 9 from our "mother" depot and 1 each from 2 other centres. The difference in engineering standards was unbelievable.
My last "tide over until retirement" job was for a company running badly maintained Mercedes Bendibuses. It wasn't until I started reporting the gearboxes/retarders as likely to cause passenger injury, that the company had the worst ones reconditioned. Prior to that they had neck snapping downshifts and severe jerks upshifting allied with inconsistent retarder operation. They were an embarrassment to drive.
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Old 6th April 2022, 12:16   #38
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Originally Posted by polinsteve View Post
I don't have a lot of respect for him. I've questioned him a few times about various aspects.
OMG if you question him he will only get upset, perhaps even go to insults. He only likes people who agree with him and tell him how wonderful he is

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Old 6th April 2022, 12:35   #39
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The point about "not changing gear because it diverts attention from driving" i.e. steering- has some validity as the ability of the drivers is so variable as are driving conditions. Chris.S.
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Old 6th April 2022, 17:56   #40
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Originally Posted by polinsteve View Post
Firstly, it is rare indeed for an event to occur without warning.
Hi Steve,

As a trained driving instructor, could I ask your opinion on this situation please?

I am on an 'A' or 'B' road travelling at 40 or 50 mph in 4th gear (the exact speed isn't really relevant). The driver in front of me signals an intended right turn and begins to slow. I brake gently and, at the appropriate speed, change down to 3rd, this being the old fashioned method. Our vehicles' speeds reduce a little more then something unexpected happens. The driver in front cancels the right turn indication and accelerates away briskly. I am in the correct gear to do likewise.

With the modern method, wouldn't I be taught to assume that the driver in front would be stopping before the right turn and so I should brake but remain in 4th gear until the last minute, then change into 2nd (or even first) in order to drive on? But the driver in front didn't stop, so with 4th gear still selected I would be in the wrong gear for the changed circumstances. My acceleration would be desperately slow probably with uncomfortable vibration. I would naturally then wish to engage a lower gear but which one? I would have to make a hurried decision and a less than smooth change because a large increase in engine revs would be necessary.

I'm sorry, I disagree fundamentally with the modern method of not changing down through the gearbox. In my experience it offers no advantage and several disadvantages over the existing well proven technique.

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