Correct oil for manual gearbox!!

[loz1971]

OK, I have started this thread to get as much info as possible, I have bought some gearbox oil for a change on Connie, but now don't know if I have the correct stuff!!

I know the recommended stuff is Texaco MTF 94 or Burmah oil MTF 1067, so I looked on the internet and found that Texaco MTF 94 is a 75W80 GL4 oil, so, as nowhere else was open, I bought Halfrauds 75W80 GL4 oil, but now I am being told that it isn't the same as the Texaco oil

So, please help, what is the difference between the 2, I really wanted to change the oil today, but don't want to ruin the gearbox by filling it with the wrong stuff!!

And thank you to the people who have already replied on my other thread

[T-Cut]

I would assume that the viscosity and the API performance specifications define the oil for the job. This is certainly the case in engine oils, though there seems to be an insistance that auto-gearboxes use the exact oil set down in the handbook. For a manual box, I don't think the brand should be particularly important. Providing the oil meets the GL4 spec and is of the correct viscosity range, it will be OK. There doesn't seem much point in providing the spec info if only a singular brand is acceptable. All car manufacturers quote a specific oil brand in their handbooks, but whether this is because of a technical necessity or a marketing tie-up is moot.

I bet answers to your query will now flood in.

TC

[bl52krz]

i agree entirely with what you say t-cut.
the point is that the gearbox (manual) was obviously tested with whatever brand/grade of oil that was either, recomended by their technical department,through an oil company, or "the old boys" network.
what parts of the gearbox have plastic parts ? are the bearing cages in the gearbox made of plastic> are they a certain grade of plastic?
all i know is, i am not willing to risk the health of my gearbox, for the sake of a few pounds. over my motoring career, i have seen some disasterous decisions to save money using "cheaper immitations".
so go ahead and let us know 5years down the road if you had any trouble.

[loz1971]

I certainly didn't buy the Halfrauds stuff to save money, not at just over £9 a bottle

[kfieldin]

Some useful information in this post from another forum (non MGR related):-

This post may seem like going back to basics but we are constantly surprised by the amount of people who do not know or understand what is written on a bottle of oil and therefore have no idea of what they are looking for, buying or using.

This post should help as a basic guide, for more detailed information contact us and we will be happy to help.

So, to be blunt about the subject, if a bottle of oil does not contain the following basic information then DO NOT buy it look for something that does!

1) The purpose for which it is intended (i.e. Motor oil, Gear oil etc)

2) The viscosity (i.e. 10w-40, 5w-30 etc for Motor oils and 80w-90, 75w-90 etc for Gear oils)

3) The specifications that it meets (should contain both API and ACEA ratings)

4) The OEM Approvals that it carries and the codes (i.e. MB229.3, VW504.00, FORD 913a/b, BMW LL04 etc)

Ignore the marketing blurb on the label it is in many cases meaningless and we will explain later what statements you should treat with skepticism.

So, what does the above information mean and why is it important?

THE BASICS

All oils are intended for an application and in general are not interchangeable. You would not for example put an Automatic Transmission Oil or a Gear Oil in your engine! It is important to know what the oils intended purpose is.

VISCOSITY

Most oils on the shelves today are “Multigrades”, which simply means that the oil falls into 2 viscosity grades (i.e. 10w-40 etc)

Multigrades were first developed some 50 years ago to avoid the old routine of using a thin oil in winter and a thicker oil in the summer.

In a 10w-40 for example the 10w bit (W = winter, not weight or watt or anything else for that matter) simply means that the oil must have a certain maximum viscosity/flow at low temperature.

The lower the “W” number the better the oils cold temperature/cold start performance. I.E. 5w is better than 10w etc

The 40 in a 10w-40 simply means that the oil must fall within certain viscosity limits at 100 degC. This is a fixed limit and all oils that end in 40 must achieve these limits.

Once again the lower the number the thinner the oil, a 30 oil is thinner than a 40 oil at 100 degC etc. Your handbook will specify whether a 30, 40 or 50 etc is required.


SPECIFICATIONS

Specifications are important as these indicate the performance of an oil and whether it has met or passed the latest tests or whether the formulation is effectively obsolete or out of date.

There are two specifications that you should look for on any oil bottle and these are API (American Petroleum Institute) and ACEA (Association des Constructeurs Europeens d’Automobiles) all good oils should contain both of these and an understanding of what they mean is important.

API

This is the more basic of the two specs as it is split (for passenger cars) into two catagories.

S = Petrol and C = Diesel, most oils carry both petrol (S) and diesel © specifications.

The following table shows how up to date the specifications the oil are:

PETROL

SG - Introduced 1989 has much more active dispersant to combat black sludge.

SH - Introduced 1993 has same engine tests as SG, but includes phosphorus limit 0.12%, together with control of foam, volatility and shear stability.

SJ - Introduced 1996 has the same engine tests as SG/SH, but phosphorus limit 0.10% together with variation on volatility limits

SL - Introduced 2001, all new engine tests reflective of modern engine designs meeting current emissions standards

SM - Introduced November 2004, improved oxidation resistance, deposit protection and wear protection, also better low temperature performance over the life of the oil compared to previous categories.

Note:

All specifications prior to SL are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date SL and SM specifications.

DIESEL

CD - Introduced 1955, international standard for turbo diesel engine oils for many years, uses single cylinder test engine only

CE - Introduced 1984, improved control of oil consumption, oil thickening, piston deposits and wear, uses additional multi cylinder test engines

CF4 - Introduced 1990, further improvements in control of oil consumption and piston deposits, uses low emission test engine

CF - Introduced 1994, modernised version of CD, reverts to single cylinder low emission test engine. Intended for certain indirect injection engines

CF2 - Introduced 1994, defines effective control of cylinder deposits and ring face scuffing, intended for 2 stroke diesel engines

CG4 - Introduced 1994, development of CF4 giving improved control of piston deposits, wear, oxidation stability and soot entrainment. Uses low sulphur diesel fuel in engine tests

CH4 - Introduced 1998, development of CG4, giving further improvements in control of soot related wear and piston deposits, uses more comprehensive engine test program to include low and high sulphur fuels

CI4 Introduced 2002, developed to meet 2004 emission standards, may be used where EGR ( exhaust gas recirculation ) systems are fitted and with fuel containing up to 0.5 % sulphur. May be used where API CD, CE, CF4, CG4 and CH4 oils are specified.

Note:
All specifications prior to CH4 are now obsolete and although suitable for some older vehicles are more than 10 years old and do not provide the same level of performance or protection as the more up to date CH4 & CI4 specifications.

If you want a better more up to date oil specification then look for SL, SM, CH4, CI4

ACEA

This is the European equivalent of API (US) and is more specific in what the performance of the oil actually is. A = Petrol, B = Diesel and C = Catalyst compatible or low SAPS (Sulphated Ash, Phosphorus and Sulphur).

Unlike API the ACEA specs are split into performance/application catagories as follows:

A1 Fuel economy petrol
A2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)
A3 High performance and/or extended drain
A4 Reserved for future use in certain direct injection engines
A5 Combines A1 fuel economy with A3 performance

B1 Fuel economy diesel
B2 Standard performance level (now obsolete)
B3 High performance and/or extended drain
B4 For direct injection car diesel engines
B5 Combines B1 fuel economy with B3/B4 performance

C1-04 Petrol and Light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 low SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.
C2-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible.
C3-04 Petrol and light duty Diesel engines, based on A5/B5-04 mid SAPS, two way catalyst compatible, Higher performance levels due to higher HTHS.

Note: SAPS = Sulphated Ash, Phosphorous and Sulphur.

Put simply, A3/B3, A5/B5 and C3 oils are the better quality, stay in grade performance oils.

APPROVALS

Many oils mention various Car Manufacturers on the bottle, the most common in the UK being VW, MB, BMW, Ford or Vauxhall but do not be misled into thinking that you are buying top quality oil because of this.

Oil Companies send their oils to OEM’s for approval however some older specs are easily achieved and can be done so with the cheapest of mineral oils. Newer specifications are always more up to date and better quality/performance than the older ones.

Some of the older OEM specifications are listed here and depending on the performance level of your car are best ignored if you are looking for a quality high performance oil:

VW – 500.00, 501.00 and 505.00

Later specs like 503, 504, 506 and 507 are better performing more up to date oils

MB – 229.1

Later specs like 229.3 and 229.5 are better performing more up to date oils.

BMW – LL98

Later specs like LL01 and LL04 are better performing more up to date oils.


FINALLY

Above is the most accurate guidance we can give without going into too much depth however there is one final piece of advice regarding labelling.

Certain statements are made on labels that are meaningless and just marketing hype, here are a few to avoid!

Recommended for use where……………

May be used where the following specifications apply……………

Approved by………………………..(but with no qualification or specification)

Recommended/Approved by (some famous person, these endorsements are paid for)

Racing/Track formula (but with no supporting evidence)

Also be wary of statements like “synthetic blend” if you are looking for a fully synthetic oil as this will merely be a semi-synthetic.

Like everything in life, you get what you pay for. The cheaper the oil the cheaper the ingredients, lower the performance levels and older the specs it meets so beware!

If you would like further advice then please feel free to ask here or contact us via our website or email.

Simon & Guy
Opie Oils

[kfieldin]

and some more from the OPIE guys:

We are often asked why don’t you do an article on Gear Oils? Well, an article would be very complex but here are the answers to a few FAQ’s that we have had over the years.

What does API GL mean?

API stands for American Petroleum Industry and GL stands for Gear Lubricant, see below for their definitions:

API GL-1 Straight mineral oil
API GL-2 Mild EP for worm gears
API GL-3 Mild EP for spur and spiral bevel gears in axles and transmissions
API GL-4 Medium EP, MIL-L-2105 quality, moderate severity hypoid gears, manual transmissions
API GL-5 High EP, MIL-L-2105D quality, all hypoid axles, some manual transmissions
API GL-6 Extra high EP, now obsolete

Is it important to select the right API GL rating?

Yes. Selecting the correct gear oil performance level will provide the best protection to the components of the transmission.

What do the SAE grades mean?

SAE stands for the Society of Automotive Engineers. The SAE classification system is a way of defining how thin or how thick an oil is. This is known as an oil’s viscosity. The classifications are listed here in order of increasing thickness: SAE 75W, SAE 80W, SAE 85W, SAE 90, SAE 140, SAE 250.

What does EP mean?

EP means extreme pressure and refers to the additive used in gear oils. This additive is designed to stop metal-to-metal contact taking place between transmission components. The EP additives are usually based on sulphur and phosphorous. These elements bond to the metal surfaces where there are points of extreme pressure and temperature, forming a sacrificial chemical layer. The sulphur gives gear oils their characteristic smell.

Will synthetic gear oils and mineral gear oils mix together?

Yes, but beware that there two kinds of synthetic gear available: polyalphaolefin (PAO) based and polyalkylene glycol (PAG) based. PAOs are basically a man made version of mineral oils (although with greatly improved properties) and can therefore be mixed with mineral oils. In fact, semi-synthetic products have mineral and synthetic base fluids in them, so obviously, they must be able to mix. PAGs, on the other hand, will not mix with PAOs or mineral oil. Utmost care must be taken when using this kind of product.

What is a hypoid axle?

Hypoid is an abbreviation for hypocycloidal and relates to the geometry of the crown wheel and pinion arrangement usually on rear wheel drive cars. The pinion is usually highly offset to reduce propshaft intrusion into the passenger compartment.

Do I need a special oil for limited slip differentials?

Yes. When the power distribution between two drive shafts is no longer equal (usually due to the surface condition that the drive wheels are turning on, i.e. ice, mud), limited slip differentials are able to effectively lock the two half shafts, ensuring equal power distribution once again. When this limited slip differential mechanism ‘kicks in’ there is a high shock loading on the clutch mechanism that requires protection from wear and slippage. Use of the incorrect oil can lead to clutch degradation and vibration.

Why should I choose non-EP straight oils for my classic car?

Depending on the age, make and model non-EP gear oils may be required for use in gearboxes and final drives. Certain designs contained a lot of phosphor-bronze (copper containing) components that are sensitive particularly to the sulphur extreme pressure (E additive. The sulphur attacks the copper and destroys the integrity of the meshing gear surfaces.

Is it alright to use ATF in a manual gearbox?

Certain designs do specify the use of an ATF in manual gearboxes, but they should only be used where it is clearly stated by the manufacturer.

Is there one gear oil that will meet all my requirements?

This will depend on makes and models, but very often the answer is no. Gearboxes, final drives, transfer boxes, etc., all have their own specific lubrication requirements. The specification of the oil required will be outlined by the design engineers, who will determine which type of oil will provide the maximum protection to the transmission components. It may certainly be possible to rationalise and reduce the number of lubricants used, but the magical
single product may not be achievable.

What is the difference between a gear oil, an atf and an mtf and why are they sometimes interchangeable?

There is a fair amount of common ground, all do a basically similar job, an ATF could be regarded as a low viscosity gear oil with more precisely controlled frictional properties.

What is an MTF and why is it used instead of a gear oil?

MTF ( manual transmission fluid ) is a term preferred by some OEMs, perhaps they think it's more descriptive than "gear oil". It doesn't call up any particular performance or viscosity. For example a Volvo MTF will not be the same as a Honda MTF.

How do gear oil, atf and mtf viscosities relate to engine oil viscosities?

Gear oils and engine oils are classified by 2 different viscosity grading systems. A 75W-90 gear oil, for example, is about the same viscosity as a 10W-40 engine oil. In theory ATFs and MTFs can be any viscosity as required by the OEM. In practice ATFs are approx. the same viscosity as a SAE 10 engine oil or a ISO 32 hydraulic oil. MTFs are about the same, possibly slightly thicker.

What is a 75w gear oil as this is only a cold crank rating isn’t it?
The target here is 4.1 cSt minimum @ 100 deg. C + the low temp target. If the gear oil in question is, for example, a 75W-80 it must meet both specs which is effectively the 75W low temp + the high temp targets of both specs.; 4.1 cSt minimum for the SAE 75W and 7.0 - 11.0 cSt for the SAE 80. You can see that the SAE 80 target " overlays" the SAE 75W target so expect the KV 100 of a 75W-80 to be about 9 cSt.

Can one gear oil cover a number of viscosities like 75w-90, 80w-90 and 90 and why?

Yes it can, the viscosity grades are not mutually exclusive, it is possible to blend a gear oil with multigrade characteristics such that it falls within, for example, the SAE 75W and the SAE 90 viscosity bands. A mulitgrade oil ( gear or otherwise ) is simply an oil which falls into more than one viscosity grade.

Why do some synthetic gear oils cause poor shifting in older or high mileage boxes?

If this really happens it can be that the generally lower viscosity of a synthetic gear oil may not suit an older or worn box.

Can engine oils be used in gearboxes if they are the right viscosity and are there advantages to using them?

Engine oils can be used in certain gearboxes, in the past it was the norm to do just that. Modern engine oils can be expected to attain the baseline API GL4 performance required for gear protection. Viscosity is not likely to be an issue, the viscosity of a 10W-40 engine oil, for instance, approximates to a 75W-90 in gear oil terms. The gear oil viscosity grade system uses bigger numbers than the engine oil system but that doesn't mean the oils are thicker.

The advantages? The detergency and antiwear systems in engine oils may cope with excessive "competition" temperatures better. Engine oils are intended for a shorter service life than gear oils so one point to be aware of is the viscosity modifiers used in multigrade engine oils may not be as shear stable as true gear oil VM’s so a bigger viscosity drop in service is possible. If you are considering this, use a top quality shear stable engine oil, or talk to us first.

Are filled for life gear oils a gimmick and are they in the long term bad for your gearbox?

I wouldn't say they are a gimmick but they do assume "normal" service conditions. Having a modified engine putting more power through the box & competition conditions don't lend themselves to gentle gear changes so you may see higher wear rates and more wear debris in circulation. It's logical to change the oil periodically if only to flush out the wear debris.

Of course the discerning owner may wish to change the oil occcasionally even if the service conditions are considered to be less severe.

This may raise more questions than it answers but hopefully it is of use to some of you.

The Opie Oils Team

[T-Cut]

Originally Posted by kfieldin

. . . Lots of tech stuff that I'm too tired to read . .

So will Halford's oil be OK?

TC

[tonygardner]

yes lets cut to the chase , will the halfords oil be ok as im going to change mine soon

[Greeners]

Right....very simple answer......

If the manual says you can use an oil that meets a spec, then you can use anything as long as it meets that spec.

If the manufacturer says you must use a certain product, then that's the one you should use.

[T-Cut]

Originally Posted by Greeners

If the manufacturer says you must use a certain product, then that's the one you should use.

That seems pretty clear.

The Haynes manual says: Texaco MTF94 or Burmah MTF1067, so Halford's is out.

For the Brakes/Clutch it says: A fluid to DOT4 spec (Shell Donax YB), so is Halford's DOT4 OK or is it only the Shell product?

For the power steering it says: A Dexron III type fluid.

Is anyone else confused?

TC