Odd breakdown.

[Frogmella]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire GOC

faulty crank sensor - failing when hot working once cooled down - if it happens again check the rev counter -if its still then it points to the crank sensor.

The rev counter will definately be still because there was no response to the ignition key at all, other than lighting the dash lights.


My previous car was a V6 Omega which was infamous for doing its crank sensor because the wiring was routed too close to the hot exhaust, I used to always carry a spare in the boot. I considered it might be the crank sensor to blame here too but as the starter motor is making an odd noise giving it some TLC won't hurt, so I'll start there.


I will also test your hypothesis as well, thanks for taking an interest.

[Yorkshire GOC]

The scenario you describe is identical to my experience -and it was the crank sensor A still rev counter clearly points to a failed/failing crank sensor

[Frogmella]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire GOC

The scenario you describe is identical to my experience -and it was the crank sensor A still rev counter clearly points to a failed/failing crank sensor

I am certainly not ignoring your advice here, I am always grateful when people take the trouble to offer suggestions.


Surely, if the engine won't turn over in the slightest, as was the case the other day, the rev counter will always remain still.



When my Omega had a crank sensor failure it would turn over and over but never fire up.



The car is now starting when cold but it is reluctant and making a bit of a fuss about it, it used to start first time, every time, now it doesn't. Once it starts it runs normally. I haven't had a repetition of the complete failure since the incident at Tesco but then I am not driving the car at present.

[Yorkshire GOC]

You will get lights on but no starter motor - if the ECU does not receive a signal from the crank position sensor it will not let the car start at all - as i say a still rev counter is a classic telltale for the crank sensor failing.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Frogmella

Surely, if the engine won't turn over in the slightest, as was the case the other day, the rev counter will always remain still.

According to RAVE, the crankshaft sensor signal is required for fuelling and ignition but does not disable the starter motor.

A simple thing Alex but have you checked that the battery cable terminals are secure on their posts? Even though the clamp might be tight, the terminal can sometimes lift on the tapered post and create a poor connection which is only sufficient for low current demands.

Simon

[Frogmella]

Originally Posted by SD1too

According to RAVE, the crankshaft sensor signal is required for fuelling and ignition but does not disable the starter motor.

A simple thing Alex but have you checked that the battery cable terminals are secure on their posts? Even though the clamp might be tight, the terminal can sometimes lift on the tapered post and create a poor connection which is only sufficient for low current demands.

Simon

Yes Simon, despite the dash-lights I suspected the battery connections first of all. They are solid and clean.



I would have thought a sensor failure would throw an error code but there are none?

[COLVERT]

Originally Posted by Yorkshire GOC

You will get lights on but no starter motor - if the ECU does not receive a signal from the crank position sensor it will not let the car start at all - as i say a still rev counter is a classic telltale for the crank sensor failing.

His engine does not turn over so it's impossible to send a signal to the ECU.- So it can't be the ECU saying no.---

[marinabrian]

It will be the connection to the lucar terminal on the starter motor, pull it off clean the terminal with some sandpaper, a smear of Vaseline and refit.

Job done

Brian

[Frogmella]

Finally got a forecast of some decent weather. So I checked my Haynes manual, "Disconnect battery negative terminal. Disconnect battery wire and spade connector from starter, undo two retaining bolts and withdraw starter motor", easy peasy.


(Please understand that I have never taken a starter motor off any car, I rely on Haynes).



Then, having spent half an hour getting the car jacked up I found you can't actually see either of the starter motor retaining bolts. They are both obscured by other gubbins. The photos in the Haynes manual could only be taken after removing the inlet manifold assembly and then they only show the position of one of the mounting bolts.



I pressed on. The electrical connectors were relatively easy to disconnect even though I couldn't actually see the spade connector either.


I managed, by feel only, to find and remove two 13mm bolts, about 2 inches long, one underneath, one above. But to my surprise the starter motor still wasn't moving.



As I lay under the car and tapped at the starter motor (no room to swing) with my rubber mallet I recalled a famous episode of Only Fools and Horses involving a chandalier, "brace yourself Rodney", and wondered if the bolts I had removed by feel alone had even belonged to the starter motor at all.


Anyway, as it was starting to rain (against the forecast) I contented myself with cleaning the un-seeable spade terminal with some fine sandpaper and also cleaned the connector. I replaced the 13mm bolts into the holes from whence they came, reconnected the wiring and presto, she started up straight away. I took her out for a drive to blow the cobwebs away and after returning home left her for 20 minutes and tried her again, she started immediately with no problems.


I would still like to fit my shiny new solenoid at some point (probably when I tackle the timing belt in a short while, keep a look out for that thread coming soon).



In the meantime can anyone tell me why didn't the starter motor move at all after I had removed it's retaining bolts? It was just as solidly attached with or without the bolts I removed. Is there something more to undo than Haynes was telling me? Are there any other bolts in the vicinity of the starter motor, and oriented in the same directions as starter motor bolts, that I might have removed in error thinking they were the starter motor bolts?


Thanks in advance for your insights.

[SD1too]

Originally Posted by Frogmella

... can anyone tell me why didn't the starter motor move at all after I had removed it's retaining bolts?

I've had a look in RAVE for you Alex and there's a dowel and hole as well but even so I share your surprise that the motor didn't move. After all, they're not exactly light in weight!

Simon