M47 engine performance. Expertise required.

Davey1991 · 31st January 2017, 11:41

I have been doing some fairly substantial research on the M47 engine.
Mainly using BMW forums as they seem to be a wealth of knowledge on the engine when fitted into the 3/5 series.

It would seem that these engines as standard had 163bhp when fitted to the E90 3 series.

As far as i can see there are several differences, the main one being the turbo being larger and more modern unit and obviously with the 3 series being rear wheel drive they have a different intercooler setup.

There are several things i have yet to research that interest me, maybe someone here will know the answers when relating to our cars rather than the BMW's.

ECU's: I would imagine the BMW uses a totally different unit? Remapping seems to be simpler on the BMW cars whereas remapping on the MGR units seems to be set to the default 160 remap. If looking for more than the 160 remap is there another option on the standard ecu or would it require a lot more work?

Injectors: Both the BMW and MGR cars seem to use the same units with the Bosch part numbers matching. The BMW guys like to use Bosch part no. 0445110219 as an upgrade, these are standard fit to the BMW 535d and externally seem to be identical to the standard MGR, BMW Bosch unit.
When used on the BMW's these are plug and play, with a remap to get the best out of them, would that be the same with the MGR vehicles? Or would this be a nightmare.

Intercooler: Obviously i imagine the BMW intercooler is a completely different part, but if the injectors are a plausible idea what options am i looking at for an upgraded intercooler? Would it be possible to map our cars to benefit from one?

Turbo: Along with the above my main point of call for performance was going to be a turbo, now the BMW ones would appear to be a direct fit to the engine with the corresponding manifold but what other issues are there going to be fitment wise? I imagine most of the pipework will be different but this would also be an issue with the intercooler.

My car already has a full stainless exhaust which appears to be a larger than standard bore, it has an EGR bypass and some inlet modifications.

I'm not looking for race car performance i would just like something that can keep up with modern traffic and surprise some newer cars. The BMW guys seem to manage 200BHP with just an intercooler and remap and 220+ with the injectors.

I also wonder what the limitations of the internals of this engine are, does the MGR M47 share all the same internals as the BMW unit? I am sure i have heard of these engines being quite weak when it comes to tuning, on this forum.

Sorry for the long post, but i'm sure its a change from the usual.

klarzy · 31st January 2017, 11:54

There is one element I would research... Drive train strength.... From the cast versus forged crank to the diesel gearbox limitations....

suffolk boy · 31st January 2017, 11:58

has been done quite sometime ago by some member in eastern europe.they fitted a variable vane turbo .and got the vanes to work. it did require a custom made manifold.what other if any mods they did if any i cannot remember.if is still working or ingested the vanes i have no idea

Jakg · 31st January 2017, 12:41

This has been covered in lots of detail before - but the big issue will be a VNT turbo and how you will control it.

Davey1991 · 31st January 2017, 12:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by suffolk boy

has been done quite sometime ago by some member in eastern europe.they fitted a variable vane turbo .and got the vanes to work. it did require a custom made manifold.what other if any mods they did if any i cannot remember.if is still working or ingested the vanes i have no idea

I have heard the BMW VV turbo is prone to cannibalism haha.

Davey1991 · 31st January 2017, 12:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jakg

This has been covered in lots of detail before - but the big issue will be a VNT turbo and how you will control it.

I wont necessarily be looking at VNT turbos but i am glad you mentioned the control as i had overlooked that.
I'm more interested in the limitations of remapping on the standard ECU and the compatibility of parts. The injectors in particular intrigue me if the ECU can be mapped to utilise them.

Thanks guys.

AndreRijo · 31st January 2017, 12:58

Take a look at the freelander TD4 setup. It as a 17 VNT turbo that is actuated by a boost solenoid. It can be done, just needs a bit of work and the right connections.

ECU limitations is not a problem, standard injectors limitations exist. The biggest limitation in our cars is the gearbox... It is to short, not being able to produce more top speed.

In my ZT-T I have a bigger IC, upgraded FIRAD injectors, 17 VNT turbo, stainless steel 63mm exhaust line with high-flow catalytic converter and OEM modified backbox and by now, 5 remaps done during all the modifications process, giving it more or less 200bhp.

245.000km done and everything works just fine.

Davey1991 · 31st January 2017, 13:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by AndreRijo

Take a look at the freelander TD4 setup. It as a 17 VNT turbo that is actuated by a boost solenoid. It can be done, just needs a bit of work and the right connections.

ECU limitations is not a problem, standard injectors limitations exist. The biggest limitation in our cars is the gearbox... It is to short, not being able to produce more top speed.

In my ZT-T I have a bigger IC, upgraded FIRAD injectors, 17 VNT turbo, stainless steel 63mm exhaust line with high-flow catalytic converter and OEM modified backbox and by now, 5 remaps done during all the modifications process, giving it more or less 200bhp.

245.000km done and everything works just fine.

Do you mind me asking what intercooler you used?
Where did you source the injectors?
What was required to fit the turbo?

You seem to be the man i need to speak to!

Thanks.

BigRuss · 31st January 2017, 13:05

As said above, the M47R has a cast crank whereas the BMW cars use a forged one which limits the amount of power I'd be wanting to put through one

Then there's the limits of the clutch and drivetrain this has been tried before and once you get above approx 180 bhp they don't last long either.

The BMW also uses a variable vane turbo which would need a seperate control unit as there's no facility in the standard ECM to control that. That's unless the ECM and associated wiring was grafted into the MGR wiring loom it may be possible but it's not something I've looked at.

Anything is possible given enough cash and time but I'd be more inclinded to buy a different car, there's lots of quicker ones out there that would probably cost less and be a more reliable option.

Russ

Greeners · 31st January 2017, 13:09

follow posts by Ti-rich....he probably took the M47 as far as possible

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...ead.php?t=4069

31st January 2017, 11:41	#1
Davey1991 Avid contributor MG ZT Join Date: Sep 2016 Location: Bingham, Nottingham. Posts: 240 Thanks: 66 Thanked 39 Times in 28 Posts	M47 engine performance. Expertise required. I have been doing some fairly substantial research on the M47 engine. Mainly using BMW forums as they seem to be a wealth of knowledge on the engine when fitted into the 3/5 series. It would seem that these engines as standard had 163bhp when fitted to the E90 3 series. As far as i can see there are several differences, the main one being the turbo being larger and more modern unit and obviously with the 3 series being rear wheel drive they have a different intercooler setup. There are several things i have yet to research that interest me, maybe someone here will know the answers when relating to our cars rather than the BMW's. ECU's: I would imagine the BMW uses a totally different unit? Remapping seems to be simpler on the BMW cars whereas remapping on the MGR units seems to be set to the default 160 remap. If looking for more than the 160 remap is there another option on the standard ecu or would it require a lot more work? Injectors: Both the BMW and MGR cars seem to use the same units with the Bosch part numbers matching. The BMW guys like to use Bosch part no. 0445110219 as an upgrade, these are standard fit to the BMW 535d and externally seem to be identical to the standard MGR, BMW Bosch unit. When used on the BMW's these are plug and play, with a remap to get the best out of them, would that be the same with the MGR vehicles? Or would this be a nightmare. Intercooler: Obviously i imagine the BMW intercooler is a completely different part, but if the injectors are a plausible idea what options am i looking at for an upgraded intercooler? Would it be possible to map our cars to benefit from one? Turbo: Along with the above my main point of call for performance was going to be a turbo, now the BMW ones would appear to be a direct fit to the engine with the corresponding manifold but what other issues are there going to be fitment wise? I imagine most of the pipework will be different but this would also be an issue with the intercooler. My car already has a full stainless exhaust which appears to be a larger than standard bore, it has an EGR bypass and some inlet modifications. I'm not looking for race car performance i would just like something that can keep up with modern traffic and surprise some newer cars. The BMW guys seem to manage 200BHP with just an intercooler and remap and 220+ with the injectors. I also wonder what the limitations of the internals of this engine are, does the MGR M47 share all the same internals as the BMW unit? I am sure i have heard of these engines being quite weak when it comes to tuning, on this forum. Sorry for the long post, but i'm sure its a change from the usual. Last edited by Davey1991; 31st January 2017 at 11:44..

31st January 2017, 11:54	#2
klarzy This is my second home none but not gone Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: March, Cambs Posts: 16,437 Thanks: 894 Thanked 4,247 Times in 3,025 Posts	There is one element I would research... Drive train strength.... From the cast versus forged crank to the diesel gearbox limitations.... __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]….All praise Bananaswan….

31st January 2017, 11:58	#3
suffolk boy This is my second home fiat panda Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: haverhill Posts: 6,720 Thanks: 96 Thanked 586 Times in 526 Posts	has been done quite sometime ago by some member in eastern europe.they fitted a variable vane turbo .and got the vanes to work. it did require a custom made manifold.what other if any mods they did if any i cannot remember.if is still working or ingested the vanes i have no idea __________________ fiat panda 1.2 eco

31st January 2017, 13:05	#9
BigRuss Premium Trader 75 CDT Tourer,2.5 Launch Saloon, Omipro MG/Rover (T4) Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Liversedge, West Yorkshire Posts: 5,405 Thanks: 1,105 Thanked 1,340 Times in 661 Posts	As said above, the M47R has a cast crank whereas the BMW cars use a forged one which limits the amount of power I'd be wanting to put through one Then there's the limits of the clutch and drivetrain this has been tried before and once you get above approx 180 bhp they don't last long either. The BMW also uses a variable vane turbo which would need a seperate control unit as there's no facility in the standard ECM to control that. That's unless the ECM and associated wiring was grafted into the MGR wiring loom it may be possible but it's not something I've looked at. Anything is possible given enough cash and time but I'd be more inclinded to buy a different car, there's lots of quicker ones out there that would probably cost less and be a more reliable option. Russ __________________ Replacement Key Service http://https://the75andztclub.co.uk/...d.php?t=244732 Full T4 Testbook diagnostics available. Diesel ECU repair and replacement. Options enabled or disabled as required. Diesel X-Power 135 and 160bhp, Rover 1.8T 150 to 160 MG 160 V6 to 177 upgrades available P.M. for details. Last edited by BigRuss; 31st January 2017 at 13:15..

31st January 2017, 13:09	#10
Greeners Moderator MG-ZTT Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ware, Herts Posts: 19,798 Thanks: 161 Thanked 1,249 Times in 1,036 Posts	follow posts by Ti-rich....he probably took the M47 as far as possible http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...ead.php?t=4069 __________________ *David* Impecunity is the mother of ingenuity Useful how to's for common problems Car Of The Month Jan 2014 [SatNav Power Down] [Coolant Level] [SatNav Repair] [Diesel Non Starting] [Paint Codes] [Rear Light Seals] [Reversing Light Switch] [Bleeding Brakes][Sunroof Drain] [Early ZT's][Instrument Pack Diagnostics][ATC Diagnostics]

31st January 2017, 12:41	#4
Jakg This is my second home N/A Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Suffolk Posts: 6,867 Thanks: 0 Thanked 397 Times in 302 Posts	This has been covered in lots of detail before - but the big issue will be a VNT turbo and how you will control it.

31st January 2017, 12:58	#7
AndreRijo Avid contributor MG ZT-T Extreme Spec ; Rover 45 MKII Connoisseur Plus Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: Coimbra-Portugal Posts: 240 Thanks: 46 Thanked 26 Times in 14 Posts	Take a look at the freelander TD4 setup. It as a 17 VNT turbo that is actuated by a boost solenoid. It can be done, just needs a bit of work and the right connections. ECU limitations is not a problem, standard injectors limitations exist. The biggest limitation in our cars is the gearbox... It is to short, not being able to produce more top speed. In my ZT-T I have a bigger IC, upgraded FIRAD injectors, 17 VNT turbo, stainless steel 63mm exhaust line with high-flow catalytic converter and OEM modified backbox and by now, 5 remaps done during all the modifications process, giving it more or less 200bhp. 245.000km done and everything works just fine.