KV6: using timing service tools - Page 11

SD1too · 26th May 2018, 07:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

Did you miss #Post 60 in this thread Simon?

Mike, thank you for referring me back to this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

... I've never done the cambelts on a KV6 ...

OK, so you are speaking without the benefit of practical experience. I am not. I have fitted the new belt single handedly. I have to tell you Mike that what you said here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

... if you don't use locking tools you can easily move the sprockets to get the belt on.

... is untrue. It would be an arduous task either requiring three people or, as Brian correctly says, an octopus.

So, to return to the question of why Rover used ‘floating’ sprockets, it is clear to me that the belt cannot easily be fitted and tensioned properly by one person without them and that is, of course, the requirement of a main dealer’s workshop.

Simon

SD1too · 26th May 2018, 08:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikey

I fit the locking pin in the flywheel, then do the rest by hand, using the timing tools as a guide only, I have found them to be a little cumbersome to use to get the timing spot on.

Can you be more specific please Andy? How exactly do you use them as “a guide”? How do you get the timing “spot on”?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRuss

That's just how I'd do it without the tools Mike

How you “would” do it without the tools Russ? Do you mean that you’ve done the job both with and without the tools?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigRuss

If you think about it as the belt stretches slightly with wear the valve timing is going to be slightly out anyway compared to a new belt

Your use of the word “slightly” is an overstatement Russ. If the belt stretched by any significant degree it would jump out of the sprocket teeth! Therefore any stretch is academic and would have no practical effect on valve timing.

Simon

wullie480 · 26th May 2018, 08:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiser

There is no need to mark the belt, although it is useful for keeping teeth right.
I am almost certain, that the marks on the belt will not return after two revolutions!

But you can try. Don't worry if they don't! as it is of no consequence, as long as the timing marks all correspond.

And, to nail it to the mast, belts do not stretch! For all practical purposes.

I recently changed the belt on my Insignia & the belt from gates came pre marked with 3 lines which correspond to the timing marks on the pulleys,

I always give the engine a few rotations (3 maybe 4) by hand to ensure all is ok and realign timing marks before starting, The lines on the belt didn't match back up with the pulleys but the timing was spot on, The lines will however at some point line back up but not sure how many that would take.

Does the new belts for the KV6 come pre marked with timing marks/lines?

kaiser · 26th May 2018, 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by wullie480

I recently changed the belt on my Insignia & the belt from gates came pre marked with 3 lines which correspond to the timing marks on the pulleys,

I always give the engine a few rotations (3 maybe 4) by hand to ensure all is ok and realign timing marks before starting, The lines on the belt didn't match back up with the pulleys but the timing was spot on, The lines will however at some point line back up but not sure how many that would take.

Does the new belts for the KV6 come pre marked with timing marks/lines?

That is why I specifically mentioned it. I can imagine it would be disconcerting to an operator if he sees the belt marks float past!
The number of revolutions can be found by dividing the number of teeth on the crank sprocket into the total number of teeth on the belt, which I seem to remember is 174. If that is an integer, it is a simple matter of waiting that number of turns, if not an integer, it becomes more complex, and would require more turns.

And Simon, you have an issue with the concept of tensioning the belt. That is a small operation which can easily be done by one person and requires no floating sprockets at all.
The tensioning moves the sprocket an insignificant amount, I guess max 1/2 a tooth or thereabouts. And it will straighten the belt uniformly. All is dictated by the correct number of teeth between the crank sprocket and the cam sprockets on the belt. If the belt is marked, you cannot go wrong at all.
If you had just left the sprockets where they were, that belt change would now have been done, dusted and correct!

kaiser · 26th May 2018, 12:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD1too

......................................
Your use of the word “slightly” is an understatement Russ. If the belt stretched by any significant degree it would jump out of the sprocket teeth! Therefore any stretch is academic and would have no practical effect on valve timing.

Simon

Simon, "slightly" is, if anything an overstatement, or an exaggeration , but the rest is correct.
But be careful of Mike, he does not like "insignificant" so I guess he will not be too chuffed with "practical" either!:

Oh, and where are the piccies

:wa ntpics:

SD1too · 26th May 2018, 14:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaiser

Simon, "slightly" is, if anything an overstatement, or an exaggeration ...

Yes sorry, you are correct, I should have said “overstatement”.

Simon

Mike Noc · 27th May 2018, 08:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD1too

Mike, thank you for referring me back to this.

OK, so you are speaking without the benefit of practical experience. I am not. I have fitted the new belt single handedly. I have to tell you Mike that what you said here:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

... if you don't use locking tools you can easily move the sprockets to get the belt on.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SD1too

... is untrue. It would be an arduous task either requiring three people or, as Brian correctly says, an octopus.

My apologies Simon, I should have written 'If I don't use the locking tools I can easily move the sprockets to get the belt on', and not speak for anyone else.

I made it clear that I haven't replaced the belts on this particular engine to date, but have done so on many petrol and diesel engines over the years.

My day job regularly involves replacing timing belts on packaging machines, some having 8 or more of them.

I have always found the belts fitted in a horizontal plane the most difficult to replace, due to the sprockets (which can weigh more than 10 times those on cars) being held by ETP locking bushes, and if these are undone they can fall off and hit the unfortunate person below.

In all honesty, I find the automotive timing belts I have replaced a stroll in the park in comparison.

.

Ennine · 27th May 2018, 10:14

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike Noc

I should have written 'If I don't use the locking tools I can easily move the sprockets to get the belt on',
.

surely, unless one has the "benefit of practical experience" in doing it this way one cannot comment on how arduous or not the task would be. One could only theorise or imagine and theory and imagination do not always relate directly to practicality.

kaiser · 27th May 2018, 13:53

True enough.

Mike Noc · 27th May 2018, 13:57

Yes, and I have used this technique many times, just not on this particular engine.

If is good enough for Big Russ and Trikey then it is good enough for me.

27th May 2018, 13:53	#109
kaiser This is my second home 75 Tourer 2.5 Auto, 1.8T, 75V8ZT Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Johannesburg ZA Posts: 6,200 Thanks: 1 Thanked 859 Times in 613 Posts	True enough. __________________ Worth his V8 in gold

27th May 2018, 13:57	#110
Mike Noc This is my second home Rover 75 CDT Manual Connoisseur SE, Rover 75 CDT Automatic Connoisseur SE & a Freelander Td4. Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Hampshire Posts: 11,547 Thanks: 3,470 Thanked 3,119 Times in 2,247 Posts	Yes, and I have used this technique many times, just not on this particular engine. If is good enough for Big Russ and Trikey then it is good enough for me.