lock down fines

[Simondi]

Originally Posted by stocktake

I can tell you exactly what is happening in care homes, my wife is an RGN in one.

They halted all visits from friends and relatives, They have a good procedure of hygiene when entering and leaving the building and the carers and other staff all understood that if they had symptoms they would stay at home and self isolate. ...

That is all but one carer who just over a week ago started her first shift of the week after two days off and well over halfway through her 12 hour shift approached my wife to say she was going home as she had a fever and incidentally had been coughing for the two days prior to coming back to work. Now we will never know for sure if this act of selfish stupidity caused Covid 19 to enter the building but the staff, including my wife are terrified.

They have just had confirmed their first death of a resident and tests confirmed it was a Covid-19 death, since then 4 other residents are now showing symptoms. PPE was nil. Now they have plastic disposable aprons and gloves but nothing else. The Care home says it has followed Government guidelines that were correct at the time and although trying desperately are struggling to source PPE.

I myself have purchased surgical masks, FFP3 masks and visors that i could get, not in great numbers for my wife and carers to use. Initially Government guidelines mentioned nothing about PPE in care homes.

Yesterday my wife was supposed to be on holiday as we were originally due to be in the sun but she was called in as the agency nurses are reluctant to work in a home that is known Covid 19 +.

During the day 5 of her 7 carers on her unit walked out saying they all had coughs at the same time. They are scared, I understand that, but with better PPE and back up perhaps they would have been willing to continue. My wife started her shift at 7am and finally returned home just before midnight last night.

This morning at 8am she received a call from the home manger asking if she could come in again as another nurse has not turned up. She left home at 8:15.

The care home is struggling get any staff to work there and I totally understand why but my wife is putting her life at risk for the residents of the home who she loves dearly. They need PPE, they need test kits, they need help, they need to feel safe. They have none of these.

Care homes are not all massive establishments with the ability to open 4000 bed hospitals and staff them, they rely on dedicated staff with levels cut to the bone who need to feel safe, nobody is making sure that is happening. A knock on of 5 of the staff going home with cough's? Not allowed to work for at least 7 days, why? No test kits.....

I hope she's ok, it must be really worrying for you all.

The lack of access to PPE is shocking, not just in care homes but all over.
The guidelines that my wife has at work ( she's a nurse) is at best surprising but not in a good way. Thankfully they have not had any positive cases as of yet

[wraymond]

Must say I'm amazed at the range of hatred towards 'they who do - they who don't'. Vast amounts of money being recommended, and actually applied, as fines for infringements against the alleged dictates of a government which at best is in a quandary and, in panic, invoking wartime sanctions on the public.

A quandary of not only what the cause is, who started it, or how we treat it, but also a whole range of differing interpretations that never seem to be addressed, between police forces. Really confidence inspiring isn't it.

Anyone who questions anything must be by definition a heretic and trounced, usually via social media but not exclusively! The daily appearance of a government minister (Hancock) is getting embarrassingly awkward in fielding questions and Raab looks absolutely terrified. It does nothing to avert suspicion that there is more to all this than meets the eye.

Read today that Eamonn Holmes is in trouble for saying what someone else reported as fact was, in fact, not true. The reporter concerned had described various conspiracy theories as being ridiculous and incredibly stupid, thereby denigrating anyone who agreed with them.

Holmes objected, saying mainstream media slapping those theories down is wrong because they do not know if it is true or not (that they are stupidly ridiculous) and are therefore inventing their own! He could lose his job if he doesn't make a grovelling 'apology', like others elsewhere have and not meant it, while knowing he is right.

Back to the fines: there are hundreds of incidents of broken laws that are criminal, and arguably of higher public risk than some of these 'offences', that are committed every day, without giving rise to the rage shown on here.

Not much objection there to lane-splitting motorcycles doing twice the limit down commuter queues, extremely dangerous tail-gating and some with 100 points on licences and still legally driving.

Every new Covid19 infection is a tragedy of course, but a sense of proportion is missing here. I don't expect others to behave as I do nor would I tell others to do what I do, I just take care to avoid the collective stupidity of the odd one or two idiots.

[Saga Lout]

[QUOTE=wraymond;2806288] `




The daily appearance of a government minister (Hancock) is getting embarrassingly awkward`


Or as I call it, Hancock's Half Hour.....

[wraymond]

Yes, I now have an alternative definition of 'knee-trembler'.

[Gate Keeper]

Originally Posted by stocktake

I can tell you exactly what is happening in care homes, my wife is an RGN in one.

They halted all visits from friends and relatives, They have a good procedure of hygiene when entering and leaving the building and the carers and other staff all understood that if they had symptoms they would stay at home and self isolate. ...

That is all but one carer who just over a week ago started her first shift of the week after two days off and well over halfway through her 12 hour shift approached my wife to say she was going home as she had a fever and incidentally had been coughing for the two days prior to coming back to work. Now we will never know for sure if this act of selfish stupidity caused Covid 19 to enter the building but the staff, including my wife are terrified.

They have just had confirmed their first death of a resident and tests confirmed it was a Covid-19 death, since then 4 other residents are now showing symptoms. PPE was nil. Now they have plastic disposable aprons and gloves but nothing else. The Care home says it has followed Government guidelines that were correct at the time and although trying desperately are struggling to source PPE.

I myself have purchased surgical masks, FFP3 masks and visors that i could get, not in great numbers for my wife and carers to use. Initially Government guidelines mentioned nothing about PPE in care homes.

Yesterday my wife was supposed to be on holiday as we were originally due to be in the sun but she was called in as the agency nurses are reluctant to work in a home that is known Covid 19 +.

During the day 5 of her 7 carers on her unit walked out saying they all had coughs at the same time. They are scared, I understand that, but with better PPE and back up perhaps they would have been willing to continue. My wife started her shift at 7am and finally returned home just before midnight last night.

This morning at 8am she received a call from the home manger asking if she could come in again as another nurse has not turned up. She left home at 8:15.

The care home is struggling get any staff to work there and I totally understand why but my wife is putting her life at risk for the residents of the home who she loves dearly. They need PPE, they need test kits, they need help, they need to feel safe. They have none of these.

Care homes are not all massive establishments with the ability to open 4000 bed hospitals and staff them, they rely on dedicated staff with levels cut to the bone who need to feel safe, nobody is making sure that is happening. A knock on of 5 of the staff going home with cough's? Not allowed to work for at least 7 days, why? No test kits.....

A worrying and stressful time for Marina and yourself. How astute and considerate of you Dave to buy PPE for her and the care home staff. My sister-in-law is a registered nurse working on a hospital unit in Wiltshire set up specifically for Covid-19 patients. Before I left the UK for Kenya a month ago, I bought some PPE gear for her to wear at work in case supplies ran out. I was buying it from Amazon. I found the masks in an Ironmongers DIY shop, N95 at £7.50 for 3. I bought several packs for the sis in law and to bring some back to Kenya and when I offered a pack of 3 to a friend in the UK, I was poo poo’ed as over reacting. The guy said it’s just a virus and he wouldn’t be seen dead in one. That was a month ago.

I sincerely hope you both remain unscathed by the virus and a vaccine is found soon.

[Avulon]

Originally Posted by wraymond

Must say I'm amazed at the range of hatred towards 'they who do - they who don't'. Vast amounts of money being recommended, and actually applied, as fines for infringements against the alleged dictates of a government which at best is in a quandary and, in panic, invoking wartime sanctions on the public.

A quandary of not only what the cause is, who started it, or how we treat it, but also a whole range of differing interpretations that never seem to be addressed, between police forces. Really confidence inspiring isn't it.

Anyone who questions anything must be by definition a heretic and trounced, usually via social media but not exclusively! The daily appearance of a government minister (Hancock) is getting embarrassingly awkward in fielding questions and Raab looks absolutely terrified. It does nothing to avert suspicion that there is more to all this than meets the eye.

Read today that Eamonn Holmes is in trouble for saying what someone else reported as fact was, in fact, not true. The reporter concerned had described various conspiracy theories as being ridiculous and incredibly stupid, thereby denigrating anyone who agreed with them.

Holmes objected, saying mainstream media slapping those theories down is wrong because they do not know if it is true or not (that they are stupidly ridiculous) and are therefore inventing their own! He could lose his job if he doesn't make a grovelling 'apology', like others elsewhere have and not meant it, while knowing he is right.

Back to the fines: there are hundreds of incidents of broken laws that are criminal, and arguably of higher public risk than some of these 'offences', that are committed every day, without giving rise to the rage shown on here.

Not much objection there to lane-splitting motorcycles doing twice the limit down commuter queues, extremely dangerous tail-gating and some with 100 points on licences and still legally driving.

Every new Covid19 infection is a tragedy of course, but a sense of proportion is missing here. I don't expect others to behave as I do nor would I tell others to do what I do, I just take care to avoid the collective stupidity of the odd one or two idiots.

Well I never dreamed I'd say this, but thanks for bringing this thread back on track. And I couldn't agree more with most of your first paragraph. I'll leave the 'panic' open to question: although since the hospitilisation and recover of our great leader then maybe you have a point. I'd say that 'alleged' isn't the correct word here - following the established rules emergency powers have been seized and laws put in place.



Like you, I think it's astounding how quickly the majority seem to have taken to villifying people falling foul of these laws and the vehement attitude being imparted in recommending even more punitive measures. Many all over forums and social media appear to be revelling in an holier than though attitude: forgetting that this is supposed to be 'free' country. Free to speak, and free to act: with a caveat to the safety of others (and in some random cases safety of self).



But here's my tuppence for what it's worth. Perhaps it would be more productive to think about using persuasion and sharing knowledge to encourage people to stay home unless absolutely necessary? - If no time for that then why not place them under house arrest instead with an ankle bracelet? - a fine is just a punitive measure being applied for an action that in normal times is perfectly OK. These aren't people going out to deliberately spread fear, uncertainty, or virus (OK some notable exception in the news: 3,000 people now fined - 2 news reports of people being hostile). Perhaps they've just gone stir crazy being cooped up in a small bedsit on their own for 3 effing weeks? (soon to be at least another 3).



I must say that the total lack of compassion astounds me.


I guess that I'll be in for another virtual stoning for saying as much. I'm not bothered by that - just saddened that this is the case. My optimistic view of human nature is coming round more and more to my partner's pessimistic view. It seems that a little stress seems to bring out the worst of most people.





Separately and as an aside:



I'll comment on one other sentence -

'Not much objection there to lane-splitting motorcycles doing twice the limit down commuter queues,

I've every objection to excessive speed in the wrong place - i.e breaking speed limits especially in an urban or semi-urban environment by any vehicle type (less so on open nsl roads: did you know that originally the white circle with a black line meant 'no speed limit' not 'national speed limit'?)

But I must also point out (for anyone in doubt) that lane-splitting by 2 wheelers is entirely legal in the whole of the UK. In fact the Highway code especially mentions that drivers should be alert to other road users that may be filtering through heavy traffic.

[wraymond]

Conspiracy or not Clive - it's here and it's now so it must be dealt with. 'Heads in the sand' won't turn out to be sound judgement. The route is plain and the four rules are sensible and must be followed by using a level headed approach whatever the true picture is or how it came about.

I've just read the gov.uk leaflet with regard to rule 1:
"Shopping for basic necessities: for example food and medicine, as infrequently as possible".

What it doesn't say is what is basic and how frequent is infrequent. Basic could mean bread and potatoes, rice and pasta, or to some a sea bass or rump steak and so on. Or even any number of items. Infrequent: could be weekly, monthly or whatever you like.

Given the varying grip on reality of the instructions by senior officers (including Crime Commissioners) to police in some parts of the country, that could mean the imposition of an unlimited swingeing fine on such a wide scope as to make it a nightmare. That wouldn't do a lot to help manage public disquiet. Unless of course absolutely everybody lives in social media land.

[wraymond]

Originally Posted by Avulon

…………...


I'll comment on one other sentence -
I've every objection to excessive speed in the wrong place - i.e breaking speed limits especially in an urban or semi-urban environment by any vehicle type (less so on open nsl roads: did you know that originally the white circle with a black line meant 'no speed limit' not 'national speed limit'?)

But I must also point out (for anyone in doubt) that lane-splitting by 2 wheelers is entirely legal in the whole of the UK. In fact the Highway code especially mentions that drivers should be alert to other road users that may be filtering through heavy traffic.

Given earlier events I'm glad we agree on some things.

Reference: Speed Limit signage.

Thank you, I was aware of the traffic law regarding road signs. Also well aware of the Roadcraft view on speeding by different vehicles, having been at one time a motor cycle instructor and a test examiner.

I was more pointedly concerned with the safety aspect of speeding and swerving bikes in a space 2"/3" wider than bike handlebars. Between cars and lorries and vans from all over Europe. The madness speaks for itself.

[trebor]

My neice’s daughter Stacey works for a funeral director and is laying out bodies who have died from the virus , as of a few days ago she had no proper PPE and I read today that a doctor had died from contact with a corpse.
She has small children and at the start of all this they were being looked after by grandparents so she was taking them in a morning and collecting them after work , then the school stayed open and as she is a key worker she now takes and collects them to and from school
It’s no wonder it spreads , testing is the answer and although probably no government could have been fully prepared for this virus that has no vaccine, they should have disaster recovery plans in place which includes a pandemic and it’s not as though there was no warning as they could watch what was happening in other countries and learn from it.
Testing those with the virus then tracking down those who have been in contact and testing them hunts down the virus , maybe not foolproof but more effective it acted swiftly upon and I understand that’s what’s happened in Germany and their death rate is at the bottom of the curve we see on the update every day.
I think the government have a lot to answer for, and I am a bit sick of reading which celebrity now has the virus as they have somehow been tested , whereas we still haven’t tested half of NHS staff and the government figure of 100,000 tests by the end of April is not on course to happen.
Then there are the care homes and the figures not reported every day , surely looking after some of the most vulnerable people in society deserves more priority and you can see from Dave’s post how that is not working , even if staff stay clear of the virus somehow they must be stressed out completely with all the worry and the hours they are having to work.
Given the money borrowed by the government looks like austerity will be back although it never really went away for some, so we can look forward to extra tax and the like when it’s all over.
What’s the betting there will be no decent future pay rise for the NHS staff who actually do save lives as well as putting their own lives on the line , but the honours list will be full of other VIPs who will be accredited with making a difference at this time.

[macafee2]

we seem to have digressed from commenting on fines, please can we get back on track?

macafee2