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Old 27th November 2021, 13:47   #61
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Blame the ‘take back control’ of Brexit as much and as often as you like – it’s a mute and disreputable argument and the facts are entirely different.

The facts of the matter are that the EU is blatantly turning a blind eye to their own legal responsibilities. They have a collective duty to abide by their own laws without favour or strategic avoidance. There are several countries that lie between the points of entry into the continent, the final one happens to be France, not UK. It is a simple fact that the real problem is being avoided by UKGOV out of a desire not to light fires of even greater animosity than Macron has displayed.

EU law requires any so-called ‘illegal aliens’ are to be held at their point of entry into EU territory and repatriated at an early opportunity. They have each ignored their own laws and have overridden EU law because they do not want to accept unfettered immigration for a variety of reasons. Hence the blind eyes and even assistance for travel oinwards with a known destination.

Oddball arguments about ‘taking back control’ are deliberately ignorant of what is involved in a now much wider mood of animosity towards UK by the EU and are an unfounded basis for argument which can only serve to confuse and misdirect the argument.
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Old 27th November 2021, 15:09   #62
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Correct me if I am wrong but the EU regulations to which you refer also state that the distribution of refugees across EU countries is to be proportionate. At the moment, I believe the French take roughly 3+ times the number of immigrants compared with the UK and Germany a far higher number. The UK is number 5 in the EU+UK hierarchy for numbers processed/admitted.

I don't believe it is possible to ignore one part of an agreement/regulation and cry foul that another part is not being implemented. The UK is in no position to tell the EU how to implement its regulations in the same way as the EU cannot tell the UK. Both parties have control of their own territories and systems.

I am not arguing for or against allowing the migrants in, but merely pointing out yours appears a very much one-sided view.
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Old 27th November 2021, 15:49   #63
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I’m sorry but we were told that we would be able to take back control over our borders, full stop. Leaving the EU would allow us to do that. It’s not the EU’s fault that we cannot do that.
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Old 27th November 2021, 17:40   #64
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So I can assume you don't think the French are in any way being helpful, or alternatively deliberately obstructive and complicit, in allowing illegal immigrants unrestricted passage to UK? Allowing known criminals to operate a tragic trade which must occasionally lead to the death of minors? Even waving the passengers on across the beaches and into rubber dinghies?

The UK bears no responsibility for this trafficking in any way. As said, the comments about a failed opposition to UK independence as an argument is a false premise and that is obvious, let's keep on track!

We do have control of our borders but we do not control or have any say in the EU and particularly France. We do not control or have any say in the operation of of border control for France, or blind eye of Brussels. Or are 'we' the only country that operates inside the settled law? Encouraging people to their demise is hardly a responsible thing to do. So far we have been welcoming these unfortunate people, that demonstrates our ethics. Wish we could say the same for Europe.
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Old 27th November 2021, 18:31   #65
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May I ask which 'settled law' you are referring to?

As far as I understand it, EU law is applicable within the EU, not between the EU and the UK.

It is not unreasonable to assume that the French are not being as helpful as they could be to address a potential problem for the UK. Especially if doing so would enhance the problem for them.
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Old 27th November 2021, 20:27   #66
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Talk about state the obvious! Of course we can control our borders but if a EU country chooses to adopt deliberate policies of antagonism (see Fishing etc.) we must act only in a reasonable and gentlemanly way. To use threats and retaliate in like kind in anger it would only lead to escalation. Not exactly a sensible way forward!

However, my original thoughts about using the fallacious argument of Brexit remains unchallenged. That's a battle won, which ever side we were on. Seen our latest trade figures? And foreign trade agreements?
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Old 27th November 2021, 20:45   #67
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It always seems to be someone else's fault. The French, the EU, the ............ whoever.

Meanwhile people are dying. Tragic.
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Old 27th November 2021, 21:35   #68
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We as part of the EU were in a scheme that allowed us to send the migrants back through the EU. Unfortunately we are no longer able to do that, as we decided to leave the bloc.
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Old 27th November 2021, 22:34   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wraymond View Post
And foreign trade agreements?

I believe our brilliant trade sec has signed some 50 international agreements 49 of which are virtually identical to those that prevailed before. The exception is that with Australia which the NFU and others say will cripple our livestock farmers by allowing increased use of hormones and lower husbandry standards. Maybe you're happy with that?
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Old 27th November 2021, 22:52   #70
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Default What do you see when you look at pictures of those migrants and their families?

I see people who will work as hard as anyone to make ends meet and in their young I see future doctors, scientists, kitchen fitters and so on.

I don't have a clear view on whether the migrants should we welcomed into the UK or turned away. I do understand the view held by some that they have different customs, values and norms which may/would dilute or conflict with the British way of life and norms. But then I came from a different culture yet my boss of one time used to say to me that I was more English than he was. A French friend also used to get annoyed that I was 'so English'.

The one thing I am sure about is that 'the problem' will not be solved by saying the migrants are a French or EU problem. These people actually want to come to the UK. Those who wanted to settle in an EU country have applied to do so - large numbers of them. The solution I think lies in our government working with the governments of the migrants and potential migrants origins to educate their citizens that the UK is not the place where their dreams and aspirations are going to be realised.

This article provides useful information on numbers. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-53699511

To highlight the contradictions and complexities of the whole issue of immigration, my brother and I used to work in a PCB making firm during the summer holidays whilst at college. Between us we were able to cover for anyone on holiday as we could run any of the machines or workstations in the firm. There was one person who always used to leave newspaper cuttings saying foreigners should go home on his table whenever we stood in for him. Yet his aspiration was to go and live in Spain at retirement, which he and his wife did when they retired!
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