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Old 23rd November 2021, 17:01   #121
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Originally Posted by Torqueofthedevil View Post
This article would seem to confirm the efficacy of the "so-called vaccine" in warding off the most serious symptoms.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ford-scientist
See my Post #111
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Old 23rd November 2021, 19:37   #122
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You have completely missed the point that the vacinne is preventing deaths. If you had the jab you were 32 times less likely to get Covid.
It does not matter that the population at the beginning of the year which had had the jab was not that large. You are comparing 100,000 who had had the jab with a 100000 who had not. Simple statistics

Not everything in the world is a conspiracy just because it does not agree with your thinking.
I advocate taking the jab if you haven't had the virus, I don't buy into this being a conspiracy, I look at it cold and without any trust of official data. I'll take issue with the data you supplied, there is no way that a vaccinated person was 32 times less likely to get covid, that's been disproved over recent months as each group can catch it and spread it. I'll believe the data when it's published with ages, dates and causes of death, that's how I do things, not registering a person dead of covid because they fell off a ladder 27 days after testing positive. The data is being twisted to suit what the governments want it to say.
Give me one good reason why natural immunity is being totally ignored and I might listen to your `facts`
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Old 23rd November 2021, 19:43   #123
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I advocate taking the jab if you haven't had the virus, I don't buy into this being a conspiracy, I look at it cold and without any trust of official data. I'll take issue with the data you supplied, there is no way that a vaccinated person was 32 times less likely to get covid, that's been disproved over recent months as each group can catch it and spread it. I'll believe the data when it's published with ages, dates and causes of death, that's how I do things, not registering a person dead of covid because they fell off a ladder 27 days after testing positive. The data is being twisted to suit what the governments want it to say.
Give me one good reason why natural immunity is being totally ignored and I might listen to your `facts`
Suggest you contact the Office of National Statistics and request the information under Freedom of Information.
Then you can sit and analyse the data. It will keep you busy for a few weeks.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 20:02   #124
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Absolutely correct. Whenever the press ran an article on dentists' pay it was always negative. Many years ago I had patients who believed a press article that dentists were on £200k salaries. The useless scribes had confused EBITDA with net income. I knew a garage owner in Aboyne back in 1980 whose gross was £250k from petrol. He needed a new petrol pump, and decided it made more sense for him to stop serving petrol since his margins were too thin to justify buying a new pump. My NHS pension will be about £500/year because I abandoned the NHS in 1980 to go and work for Shell Expro in Aberdeen. I was told , we want you to do good dentistry (amongst other useful requirements for them). I found that working hard but properly, the NHS income we claimed was 1/3 of what was needed for me to earn £17k, which was a good salary then, and that Shell made up the difference while providing premises, staff, materials and repairs. Fast forwards to today, and dentists make the NHS contract work by working fast...and I mean fast.
Those who manage get to 65, most run for the hills, since they get a very nice pension and are burned out. I could go on, but not sure if it's appropriate in this thread?

I think this debate is now more interesting than the main thread topic. My hopes have been truly dashed. I started off wanting to make friends with dentists so that I could enjoy holidays with these friends on their Sunseekers. Then my overriding socialist principles determined that dentists should in fact follow other deserving groups to the correction facilities post the revolution. Now, I am left feeling sorry for my dentist and thinking of starting a collection to support his welfare!

As for the thread topic, I think the thread has lost the plot. The fundamental question is not whether having the vaccination is beneficial, but rather whether it can ever be morally acceptable to force an individual or group of individuals to choose between having something that could have long-term side effects injected into their bodies or maintaining their employment/livelihoods.

I note that care home residents and their visitors are not being mandated to have the vaccination. Yet this would be the solution to giving the residents protection.
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Old 23rd November 2021, 21:11   #125
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Give me one good reason why natural immunity is being totally ignored and I might listen to your `facts`
How can you know if someone has natural immunity or not when you are analysing 100k of data?

If you think about it if people that have not had the jab but have immunity then that will improve the figure for the unjabbed people
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:18   #126
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How can you know if someone has natural immunity or not when you are analysing 100k of data?

If you think about it if people that have not had the jab but have immunity then that will improve the figure for the unjabbed people
Everyone who went for a test at testing station had their data taken by the government, everyone who has had the virus has natural immunity if they recovered from it, that's simple to understand, that data is there to be used. If you catch anything at all and recover from it you get natural immunity, a cut on the hand will kill you if you can't heal. If you're unjabbed and had the virus the vaccine figures will change in a dramatic way, but that data won't be provided. I've gone from trusting the science as the truth to now thinking it's propaganda to achieve compliance, the positive discrimination against people that don't get jabbed is disturbing, the way that the hysterical jabbed people back that discrimination is also disturbing, people have lost their minds and many have shown themselves to be worthy of a rubber room, and all because of a vaccine that lasts for a few months.
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Old 24th November 2021, 08:37   #127
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Everyone who went for a test at testing station had their data taken by the government, everyone who has had the virus has natural immunity if they recovered from it, that's simple to understand, that data is there to be used. If you catch anything at all and recover from it you get natural immunity, a cut on the hand will kill you if you can't heal. If you're unjabbed and had the virus the vaccine figures will change in a dramatic way, but that data won't be provided. I've gone from trusting the science as the truth to now thinking it's propaganda to achieve compliance, the positive discrimination against people that don't get jabbed is disturbing, the way that the hysterical jabbed people back that discrimination is also disturbing, people have lost their minds and many have shown themselves to be worthy of a rubber room, and all because of a vaccine that lasts for a few months.

You keep saying give me the facts but all we have heard from you is opinions.
This is not just about anti bodies which decline over time whether through having a jab or having caught Covid but the effect of T cells which amongst other actions help control the B cells. B cells produce antibodies. The Astra Zeneca vacinne is particularly efficient in producing long lasting T cell immunity.
By the way as I mentioned in post #111 a nurse colleague who works in an ICU unit says 9 out of 10 have not been jabbed. This is not the 32:1 ratio from the ONS but is still a significant difference none the less, but is based on a smaller sample not the 100k's of the ONS.
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Old 24th November 2021, 11:48   #128
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Originally Posted by another_clean_sheet View Post
You keep saying give me the facts but all we have heard from you is opinions.
This is not just about anti bodies which decline over time whether through having a jab or having caught Covid but the effect of T cells which amongst other actions help control the B cells. B cells produce antibodies. The Astra Zeneca vacinne is particularly efficient in producing long lasting T cell immunity.
By the way as I mentioned in post #111 a nurse colleague who works in an ICU unit says 9 out of 10 have not been jabbed. This is not the 32:1 ratio from the ONS but is still a significant difference none the less, but is based on a smaller sample not the 100k's of the ONS.
One of my nieces has worked in ICU for the past 2 years. She had the vaccinations 1 and 2 as well as the booster. She said most of the patients in ICU with COVID were not vaccinated. After 2years of working in ICU, she is moving to a new job elsewhere in the NHS.
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Old 24th November 2021, 14:30   #129
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Originally Posted by another_clean_sheet View Post
You keep saying give me the facts but all we have heard from you is opinions.
This is not just about anti bodies which decline over time whether through having a jab or having caught Covid but the effect of T cells which amongst other actions help control the B cells. B cells produce antibodies. The Astra Zeneca vacinne is particularly efficient in producing long lasting T cell immunity.
By the way as I mentioned in post #111 a nurse colleague who works in an ICU unit says 9 out of 10 have not been jabbed. This is not the 32:1 ratio from the ONS but is still a significant difference none the less, but is based on a smaller sample not the 100k's of the ONS.
I'll rest my case here, you have an opinion and we'll let it run it's course. My natural immunity will outlast any of the vaccines and, by next year you'll all be taking a fourth and fifth jab to keep antibodies up. The problem facing everyone, vaccinated or not is that this virus will get most of the people on the planet before it fades, the natural immunity to it will kill it in the end. The vaccines are not slowing the spread of it but they are keeping people out of hospital. I don't believe any official stats and I despair at the hysteria from those who took the jabs, it's not the job of the unvaccinated to protect those who are, that's the job of the vaccines. The point about people in intensive care doesn't mean the vaccines are working as intended, they are merely cutting risk of hospital stays and I agree with that as a fact but, the vaccines were trumpeted to stop the spread, around 70% less likely was mentioned and immunity to last for a long time after the jabs. In reality we're under a year of vaccines and the third ones are already being dished out to save the world for the third time. At some point the governments will have to admit that natural immunity is the best protection and the data already exists to prove that. I choose not to take the jabs and that's my right, having that right does not give others the right to discriminate that choice. So, two years after we first saw covid we're still fighting it, that two weeks to flatten the curve didn't work out well, the vaccines have bought time for everyone to catch the virus in a safer fashion and that's all they'll do in the end.
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Old 24th November 2021, 14:41   #130
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I'll rest my case here, you have an opinion and we'll let it run it's course. My natural immunity will outlast any of the vaccines and, by next year you'll all be taking a fourth and fifth jab to keep antibodies up. The problem facing everyone, vaccinated or not is that this virus will get most of the people on the planet before it fades, the natural immunity to it will kill it in the end. The vaccines are not slowing the spread of it but they are keeping people out of hospital. I don't believe any official stats and I despair at the hysteria from those who took the jabs, it's not the job of the unvaccinated to protect those who are, that's the job of the vaccines. The point about people in intensive care doesn't mean the vaccines are working as intended, they are merely cutting risk of hospital stays and I agree with that as a fact but, the vaccines were trumpeted to stop the spread, around 70% less likely was mentioned and immunity to last for a long time after the jabs. In reality we're under a year of vaccines and the third ones are already being dished out to save the world for the third time. At some point the governments will have to admit that natural immunity is the best protection and the data already exists to prove that. I choose not to take the jabs and that's my right, having that right does not give others the right to discriminate that choice. So, two years after we first saw covid we're still fighting it, that two weeks to flatten the curve didn't work out well, the vaccines have bought time for everyone to catch the virus in a safer fashion and that's all they'll do in the end.

And how many years have we been having annual flu vaccinnes?
Can you point me to the source of the data that shows that natural immunity is the best protection.
I assume that you are not going to analyse the ONS data
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