Help Needed: Non Starting Diesel

danbax · 8th April 2013, 17:12

i am new here and cant find where to post my problem anyway here it is cheers

hi I have just bought (privatley) the rover 75 2.0 diesel on 2002 plate and have run into problems within a week I have searched many of the forums on here for a solution and think i may have it but need a little help!!
firstly the car is a lovely car which gave me much pleasure for the first few days until started having intermittent starting problems but solved just simply by either taking the key out and trying again or applying a little pressure to the accelerator then one day just wouldnt start whatsoever until i put a about 4 gallons more diesel in and pretty much started straight away then about 15 miles later wouldnt start so i tried more diesel again but no good
from info from the forums i checked under bonnet pump seems to be working humming away making slight vibration unplugged the output that goes to the filter and deisel flows out not very strongly though and seems as its heated, as for the in tank pump no noise except for the sound of fluid dripping checked the voltage its ok around 11 to 12 v so took the pump out altogether the tried nothing its dead it seems removed it from the housing and have the part number on it: 136 02 k124 where do i get this from ?
also checked the ecu for water damage seems bone dry except for small amount of corrosion on bottom screw
fbh kicks in every time open door or unlock car lift bonnet etc dont think thats working
tried easy start in air intake while cranking it started
thanks for any help

suzublu · 8th April 2013, 17:17

Hi mate,welcome along.Any problems you have you can post in the General forum for better coverage,i'm sure a moderator will move this,secondly,contact MarinaBrian,he is our specialist in the N.E & he'll quickly sort out your car.

Jules · 8th April 2013, 17:55

Also this should be moved with Danbax's post but here's where you get the intank pumps from

http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=130849

Danbax you've probably just discovered why the previous owner sold the car!!
Did you buy it private or dealer?

Work down this list for a non starting diesel

This is how a non starting CDTi should be trouble shooted.

A) How much fuel do I have?
This is the first thing to check, especially if your car is pre-facelift and has two low pressure fuel pumps. These are located in the tank on the drivers side and under the bonnet next to the battery (left of). Post facelift have a different single intank fuel pump which to date seem to be more reliable.

Both pumps prime for between 30 seconds and 1 minute when the ignition is turned to position II.

You should be able to hear the rear pump making a high pitch whine by listening to the rear wheel arch or pressing your ear to the rear seat base. If still unsure, remove the rear seat and feel the access panel for vibration. This will indicate that the pump is working.

You can hear the underbonnet pump from within the car but check by opening the bonnet. It should make a continuous noise. If it is gurgling loudly, this is a sign that something is not quite right.

If your car is not starting and your fuel guage is below half it is worth adding 5 to 10 litres to the car and trying to start it again. If it does start, this is a clear indication that your intank pump may have stopped working or is on its way out. This will place more strain on the under bonnet pump which will become apparent with increased noise. Usually only the intank pump will need replacing. This can be found on ebay for around £200 and fitted with minimal mechanical knowledge. A dealer is likely to charge upwards of £350 for the part and labour.

B) Check your plenum drain
This is where the ECU is stored. Without appropriate maintenance the drains in this are become blocked and no longer allow water to be removed. As the water level grows the threat to the ECU becomes greater. Even if the ECU has not been submerged but there is water in the plenum the damp moisture can be enough to cause problems.

There will likely be a host of other symptoms available to confirm that your ECU is playing up such as eratic dials, malfunctioning electrics.

C) Start the car with Easy Start
Easy Start is a simple chemical process which allows the car to start by igniting across the top of the cylinders with a low flash point. It should not be religiously used as it can damage the engine. Due to the massive inlet tract of the diesel engine (some 5 or 6ft before the air actually reaches the engine) it is best to remove the engine cover and unscrew the jubilee clip holding the large intercooler pipe to the EGR valve assembly at the front right of the engine.

Spray a sniff of easy start into the EGR valve and get someone to crank the car over. Do not continue to spray.

i) If the car starts and runs
You can rule out any electrical component such as the Cam and Crank sensor but you cannot rule out the ECU as its capacitors could be dying.

You can (with large probability) rule out both low pressure fuel pumps as fuel starvation will not magically be cured and the engine will stall.

So what do I Check?
If you can get the car running on Easy Start, replace the Intercooler hose to the EGR valve assembly. Turn the car off, wait a minute and try and start the car normally. Chances are it will not start.

Start the car again using Easy Start and take it to your local Bosch Service Agent. These are far more competent diesel specialists than your old Ex MGR service garage and are able to diagnose with better equipment.

Possibilities now are: ECU Capacitors, High Pressure Control Valve Regulator Seal, Injector Leakback.

Associated costs are: ECU = £650 and will need T4 session to match it to the car. HPCVR = £250. Injector Leakback = from £85, FPS = £100

ii) If the car does not start on ES
If it catches but does not idle (as in, it stalls) unfortunately you are in the worst possible situation. Try the Easy Start again but do not proceed beyond this point.

You have a few choices here and there are some gambles. Personally, I would immediately get the car collected and taken to a Bosch Specialist. Recovery can cost as little as £40 if the garage is local (within 15 miles).

Alternatively you can purchase parts yourself and hope you pick the right one. Here is a list of things that will need checking / replacing.

Fuel Pumps (as earlier, make sure they are working).

Fuel Pressure Sensor - Replace

Change your Cam and Crank sensor (£110 for both as parts, Cam is easy change, crank is relatively easy but takes a bit longer as it is situated below the starter motor).

Serious Injector Leakback - If your injectors are seriously leaking, Easy Start will be useless, however there would be a very strong of diesel from the engine bay if this was the case. Suggest diagnosed / replaced by garage.

Serious High Pressure Control Valve Regulator Seal - If the seal has deteriorated and/or actually blown through then Easy Start will be useless. It will need to be addressed by the garage.

ECU / ECU Capacitors - Replacement ECU and a session on T4.

D) What other possibilites are there?
Very little other possibilities. However, you can't even rule out the battery. This is true especially if the ECU capacitors are not cranking at their correct voltage.

Synergy Box (if fitted) - Its highly unlikely that this has caused the problem or is in anyway stopping the car from starting. However it is important to remove it and return the car to standard before carrying out the above checks.

Pumps playing tricks - Attach the front underbonnet pump directly to a 5litre can of diesel and try and start the car. This will highlight a poor intank or underbonnet pump.

Reebs · 8th April 2013, 23:12

The above three posts have been moved into their own thread here in the Technical Help section for greater coverage. Welcome along Danbax, I'm sure Mr.Jules' list will sort you out

marinabrian · 8th April 2013, 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reebs

The above three posts have been moved into their own thread here in the Technical Help section for greater coverage. Welcome along Danbax, I'm sure Mr.Jules' list will sort you out

And if Jules list doesn't, I know a man who can

PM me a contact number Dan, I'm on your doorstep

Brian

marinabrian · 12th April 2013, 18:47

have you got it started yet?
Brian

danbax · 15th April 2013, 20:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by marinabrian

have you got it started yet?
Brian

nah mate still searching for best fuel pump & price and wether or not to go for the single in tank fuel pump(2005)onwards version combined with the under bonnet one or somthing with more pressure??
id love to know what the actual specifications are for the one that was in it to start with and how much of a difference a higher spec one would do

i can do this myself i think

btw someone is selling a rover mg 2.5 v6 petrol 02 plate good condition for £350
but need a clutch

COLVERT · 15th April 2013, 20:32

Fit the Peugeot in tank pump. Cheaper and got more pressure.

danbax · 15th April 2013, 20:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by COLVERT

Fit the Peugeot in tank pump. Cheaper and got more pressure.

i deffo want a new not second hand one but where...?

also whats the craic with a universal pump... if it looks like the one you took out lol
ok so i searched google images for in tank fuel pump looked for one similar to the one i took out and am finding many for between £25 and £100 +

Jules · 16th April 2013, 18:38

There's no real benefit to increasing the pressure of the intank pump if still retaining UB pump.
The only reason a few have carried out this is due to price!

Any increased pressure just gets pumped round the pipes and tank quicker !
Remember the only function the intank pump is to balance the 2 compartments of saddle tank.

8th April 2013, 17:12	#1
danbax Avid contributor rover 75 Join Date: Apr 2013 Location: newcastle Posts: 141 Thanks: 14 Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts	Help Needed: Non Starting Diesel i am new here and cant find where to post my problem anyway here it is cheers hi I have just bought (privatley) the rover 75 2.0 diesel on 2002 plate and have run into problems within a week I have searched many of the forums on here for a solution and think i may have it but need a little help!! firstly the car is a lovely car which gave me much pleasure for the first few days until started having intermittent starting problems but solved just simply by either taking the key out and trying again or applying a little pressure to the accelerator then one day just wouldnt start whatsoever until i put a about 4 gallons more diesel in and pretty much started straight away then about 15 miles later wouldnt start so i tried more diesel again but no good from info from the forums i checked under bonnet pump seems to be working humming away making slight vibration unplugged the output that goes to the filter and deisel flows out not very strongly though and seems as its heated, as for the in tank pump no noise except for the sound of fluid dripping checked the voltage its ok around 11 to 12 v so took the pump out altogether the tried nothing its dead it seems removed it from the housing and have the part number on it: 136 02 k124 where do i get this from ? also checked the ecu for water damage seems bone dry except for small amount of corrosion on bottom screw fbh kicks in every time open door or unlock car lift bonnet etc dont think thats working tried easy start in air intake while cranking it started thanks for any help

8th April 2013, 17:55	#3
Jules This is my second home ZT 260 SE Twilight and 10 other 75 ZT's :O Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conwy NORTH WALES Posts: 11,094 Thanks: 512 Thanked 1,116 Times in 763 Posts	Also this should be moved with Danbax's post but here's where you get the intank pumps from http://www.the75andztclub.co.uk/foru...d.php?t=130849 Danbax you've probably just discovered why the previous owner sold the car!! Did you buy it private or dealer? Work down this list for a non starting diesel This is how a non starting CDTi should be trouble shooted. A) How much fuel do I have? This is the first thing to check, especially if your car is pre-facelift and has two low pressure fuel pumps. These are located in the tank on the drivers side and under the bonnet next to the battery (left of). Post facelift have a different single intank fuel pump which to date seem to be more reliable. Both pumps prime for between 30 seconds and 1 minute when the ignition is turned to position II. You should be able to hear the rear pump making a high pitch whine by listening to the rear wheel arch or pressing your ear to the rear seat base. If still unsure, remove the rear seat and feel the access panel for vibration. This will indicate that the pump is working. You can hear the underbonnet pump from within the car but check by opening the bonnet. It should make a continuous noise. If it is gurgling loudly, this is a sign that something is not quite right. If your car is not starting and your fuel guage is below half it is worth adding 5 to 10 litres to the car and trying to start it again. If it does start, this is a clear indication that your intank pump may have stopped working or is on its way out. This will place more strain on the under bonnet pump which will become apparent with increased noise. Usually only the intank pump will need replacing. This can be found on ebay for around £200 and fitted with minimal mechanical knowledge. A dealer is likely to charge upwards of £350 for the part and labour. B) Check your plenum drain This is where the ECU is stored. Without appropriate maintenance the drains in this are become blocked and no longer allow water to be removed. As the water level grows the threat to the ECU becomes greater. Even if the ECU has not been submerged but there is water in the plenum the damp moisture can be enough to cause problems. There will likely be a host of other symptoms available to confirm that your ECU is playing up such as eratic dials, malfunctioning electrics. C) Start the car with Easy Start Easy Start is a simple chemical process which allows the car to start by igniting across the top of the cylinders with a low flash point. It should not be religiously used as it can damage the engine. Due to the massive inlet tract of the diesel engine (some 5 or 6ft before the air actually reaches the engine) it is best to remove the engine cover and unscrew the jubilee clip holding the large intercooler pipe to the EGR valve assembly at the front right of the engine. Spray a sniff of easy start into the EGR valve and get someone to crank the car over. Do not continue to spray. i) If the car starts and runs You can rule out any electrical component such as the Cam and Crank sensor but you cannot rule out the ECU as its capacitors could be dying. You can (with large probability) rule out both low pressure fuel pumps as fuel starvation will not magically be cured and the engine will stall. So what do I Check? If you can get the car running on Easy Start, replace the Intercooler hose to the EGR valve assembly. Turn the car off, wait a minute and try and start the car normally. Chances are it will not start. Start the car again using Easy Start and take it to your local Bosch Service Agent. These are far more competent diesel specialists than your old Ex MGR service garage and are able to diagnose with better equipment. Possibilities now are: ECU Capacitors, High Pressure Control Valve Regulator Seal, Injector Leakback. Associated costs are: ECU = £650 and will need T4 session to match it to the car. HPCVR = £250. Injector Leakback = from £85, FPS = £100 ii) If the car does not start on ES If it catches but does not idle (as in, it stalls) unfortunately you are in the worst possible situation. Try the Easy Start again but do not proceed beyond this point. You have a few choices here and there are some gambles. Personally, I would immediately get the car collected and taken to a Bosch Specialist. Recovery can cost as little as £40 if the garage is local (within 15 miles). Alternatively you can purchase parts yourself and hope you pick the right one. Here is a list of things that will need checking / replacing. Fuel Pumps (as earlier, make sure they are working). Fuel Pressure Sensor - Replace Change your Cam and Crank sensor (£110 for both as parts, Cam is easy change, crank is relatively easy but takes a bit longer as it is situated below the starter motor). Serious Injector Leakback - If your injectors are seriously leaking, Easy Start will be useless, however there would be a very strong of diesel from the engine bay if this was the case. Suggest diagnosed / replaced by garage. Serious High Pressure Control Valve Regulator Seal - If the seal has deteriorated and/or actually blown through then Easy Start will be useless. It will need to be addressed by the garage. ECU / ECU Capacitors - Replacement ECU and a session on T4. D) What other possibilites are there? Very little other possibilities. However, you can't even rule out the battery. This is true especially if the ECU capacitors are not cranking at their correct voltage. Synergy Box (if fitted) - Its highly unlikely that this has caused the problem or is in anyway stopping the car from starting. However it is important to remove it and return the car to standard before carrying out the above checks. Pumps playing tricks - Attach the front underbonnet pump directly to a 5litre can of diesel and try and start the car. This will highlight a poor intank or underbonnet pump. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Newbies do now!! 1. Plenum drains..all 3 or 4 year dependent 2. Cooling fan..All speeds functioning 3. Bonnet cable divider block

8th April 2013, 23:12	#4
Reebs Owners Club Director Rover 75 Conn SE V6 / MG ZT 260 SE V8 / MG ZT 180 SE V6 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Southampton Posts: 20,942 Thanks: 645 Thanked 6,851 Times in 2,537 Posts	The above three posts have been moved into their own thread here in the Technical Help section for greater coverage. Welcome along Danbax, I'm sure Mr.Jules' list will sort you out __________________ Check your trim here . Check your spec here Check your colour here . Check Project Drive here Check your original price here

16th April 2013, 18:38	#10
Jules This is my second home ZT 260 SE Twilight and 10 other 75 ZT's :O Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Conwy NORTH WALES Posts: 11,094 Thanks: 512 Thanked 1,116 Times in 763 Posts	There's no real benefit to increasing the pressure of the intank pump if still retaining UB pump. The only reason a few have carried out this is due to price! Any increased pressure just gets pumped round the pipes and tank quicker ! Remember the only function the intank pump is to balance the 2 compartments of saddle tank. __________________ [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC] Newbies do now!! 1. Plenum drains..all 3 or 4 year dependent 2. Cooling fan..All speeds functioning 3. Bonnet cable divider block

8th April 2013, 17:17	#2
suzublu This is my second home rover 75 1.8 vvc club se wedgwood blue Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Seaton Carew Posts: 26,922 Thanks: 65 Thanked 7,142 Times in 4,642 Posts	Hi mate,welcome along.Any problems you have you can post in the General forum for better coverage,i'm sure a moderator will move this,secondly,contact MarinaBrian,he is our specialist in the N.E & he'll quickly sort out your car.

12th April 2013, 18:47	#6
marinabrian MG ZT Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne Posts: 20,151 Thanks: 3,565 Thanked 10,837 Times in 5,718 Posts	have you got it started yet? Brian

15th April 2013, 20:32	#8
COLVERT This is my second home R75 Saloon. Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: France/or Devon. Posts: 14,003 Thanks: 3,851 Thanked 2,167 Times in 1,816 Posts	Fit the Peugeot in tank pump. Cheaper and got more pressure.